Antler Restrictions

What happens to the smaller bucks with inferior antlers that continue to age and breed, but cannot be shot legally?

I've never heard of antler restrictions that would not allow "junk deer" to be taken. Has anyone ever seen an adult whitetail buck that can't grow 3 points on one side? I haven't. Sure, when they get old I've seen deer that won't grow anything more than spikes but "age" is not genetic. Most of those deer grew antlers that were just fine when they were young. Besides that, any deer in our area that lives to be 2 1/2 is pretty lucky, 3 1/2 is rare, 4 1/2 is a bona fide miracle.
 
the problem is that a simple 3 on one side is a left field thing. A tall 6 or a wide 6 is a real good deer as I see em not a junker. But there are many deer that at 3 years old are a cow spike or at best a 3 or 4 point total count (eastern style) These bucks have had the requisite "equipment" to breed for 1.5 seasons at least. They breed to 1-20 deer during a rut depending on doe/buck ratio... the does possibly holding sorry genes are producing JUNK DEER...
With no antler limit a guy like me shoots him thinkin' I am getting a young guy and in return I scrub the gene pool for the sport shooter.
Then you also figure in that a doe holding good genes gets bred to a minimal buck and is removed from the trophy breeding stock this year.
All in all I think if left fully to the hunters and lease holders the whole thing equals out.
Get in a canoe, sit on the edge... don't feel good does it? So you the operator, scoot over... nature is far better at it than you...;)
To prevent thread veer I am starting another topic of ALBINO DEER...
Brent
 
Brent

The problem with "natural selection" in NY state is that ALL the bucks get selected. There are far too many hunters whose criteria is 4-legged and brown. I have been hunting deer for 17 years and I have seen 2 (yes, two) well aged, racked bucks. One was an 8 and the other a 10. Besides that, I see a few 4 or scraggly six pointers here and there. The VAST majority of "bucks" I see are buttons or teeny, pathetic spikes. I know things are different in areas that are infested with deer (like parts of Florida) but we need some sort of control in NY.
 
Peet, I agree ya'll do need some control... But I would have to really knuckle down and research the huntable/non huntable land to populace ratio. I bet if I was to do this I would find several issues in play. I think in all fairness the issue is not an antler only restriction... it should read like this... No deer under 3 years old with 4 or more points, Deer over 3 must have more than 4 or 6 or more... See where I am going? Young deer tend to have less but show "promise" of having a nice rack older. Old bucks tend to have more unless they are genetically or dieteticly (I know I spelled that wrong) challenged. The antler restriction also removes the best breeder bucks too soon. Old deer with big racks are elusive and rarely found by simple guys like me. And I feel it revolves around the deer's age. I bet a dollar to a doughnut ya'lls decent bucks surpass ours in body size and rack quality. I also bet the same that most deer are shot within a mile or so of the hunter's truck. I have seen some nasty 12-14 point 270+ pounders from "upstate NY" but were a day hike into the woods before the guys were even on the tracks.
I think it is hard to argue that most hunters whether a meat or sport hunter are typically lazy, time restrained or both.
I am a brown is down meat only hunter. I don't want an antler restriction until I get a good antler recipe... My dogs like antlers less than bloody bones BTW!:D
Brent
 
No deer under 3 years old with 4 or more points, Deer over 3 must have more than 4 or 6 or more... See where I am going?

I sure wouldn't mind seeing something like that but it will NEVER happen. People would actually have to know what they were doing. Most guys can't tell a 4 year old from a bambi whose spots just fell off. The vast majority of guys I know directly link antler size with age, big = old. Besides that, you would have to actually wait and look and be patient. 99% of hunters around here employ the following strategy:

Deer! (approximately 5 nano-seconds passes) BOOM!... BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM!
Calls buddy on the radio "Hey, I shot one."
Buddy- "Buck or doe?"
Shooter-"Uh... hell, it was a deer."
Buddy - "Big one?"
Shooter-"Hell yeah, real nice one, come help me track it."....

Half hour later, because "shooter" didn't even know the correct direction it ran or where it was standing when he shot, they finally find it, there's lies bambi, spots probably fell off 3 weeks ago, weighs about 35 pounds, little buttons so small they don't even stick above the fur.

"Yep, that's a nice one alright:rolleyes:" say the buddy as he picks up the "deer" and walks back to camp with it over his shoulder. The irony being that "buddy" did the same thing just yesterday.
 
Deer! (approximately 5 nano-seconds passes) BOOM!... BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM!

:D Yup, that's exactly what it sounds like. Then the deer I've been watching all morning get skittish and hit the road. Dang idjuts.
 
PEET, My friend, THAT IS ZACKLY THE PROBLEM and an antler restriction won't fix that one bit...
I am no good at judging age. I want to see legal timber glued to their head to be legal. Now ask your self... "How many new inexperienced solo shooters will hit the woods if rack average improves even a tiny bit"?
I size 'em up in regards to how hard it will be to drag and butcher and do I have enuff freezer space to fit it.
True trophy hunters are to busy researching the biology of deer and their preferred terrain to worry about it. They also realize that they are exponentially safer as are the true trophy bucks they chase if they are 3 plus miles farther into the woods than the goofballs you refer to. An 8 point at 160 is a real fine deer near me. A 10 at 180 is rare and a 12 at 200 is from somewhere else:cool: But no matter where you hunt, the trophy exists just a bit farther in than most guys are willing to hike.

Brent
 
An 8 point at 160 is a real fine deer near me. A 10 at 180 is rare and a 12 at 200 is from somewhere else But no matter where you hunt, the trophy exists just a bit farther in than most guys are willing to hike.


See, around here a 160 class deer is UNHEARD OF. I have NEVER seen one. We hear rumors of some guy 2 counties over shooting one but nobody ever sees it. A great, I mean once in a lifetime, buck around here is probably 140 or so. Anything bigger than that is near suburban-legend status. Our buck-doe ratio is probably 10, maybe 15:1 in most areas, 8:1 if we're lucky. We generally have very little land where we can get back in far enough to find these big boys. For instance, the area I hunt is completely encircled by roads. It's sort of long-bow shaped with the "string" being about 2 miles long but the "brace height" being only maybe 3/8 mile. Sure, that's a lot of land but it's broken up into chunks of huntability wherein most guys have 15-100 acres on which to hunt. The bigger problem being the "if I don't shoot it someone else will" mentality that pervades among the average hunter.
 
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These are the two I got over the weekend. No monsters, but very respectable bucks (For Florida that is).

The one pic is me trying to hide from Brent, he had to look a bit after the sun came up.

I will promise, that damaged arm of Brent's got a workout lugging those deer around.

We had a good time and were in the woods - all is good.

pbt
The guy in the chair is a central florida hog huntin' buddy who got a limited mobility hunt on Eglin AFB. These deer were taken from a "closed" section but were free to travel to open areas. No antler restrictions and a liberal bag limit area. These were real decent but not bragger deer for this weekend's hunt. what I am seeing from your posts is limited area results in limited food and eleveated pressure. An antler restriction will help non of these issues.
Brent
 
See, that one on the bottom is near on the biggest (rack not body) deer you'll see in these parts. Typically.
 
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I would say the average decent buck is a 6-8 point of 130-135...

I love optimists. I'm not anywhere close to being a judge of quality (read "scoreable") deer, but you are not even in the ballpark Brent. Try less than 100.;)
 
Around here? I have never seen a 100 pound deer killed... EVER... Not gutted... rather hoof weight. We do have a diverse food crop of persimmon, acorns and wild green feed plus crop lands...
I would laugh my butt off if a guy showed me a dead hunert pound deer.
Brent
 
Both the deer in the pics were weighed and recorded as well as portion of bottom jaw taken for "research"... IIRC they were 130 and 135 respectively. Several of 145-160 were also taken that weekend.
Brent
 
Both the deer in the pics were weighed and recorded as well as portion of bottom jaw taken for "research"... IIRC they were 130 and 135 respectively. Several of 145-160 were also taken that weekend.

My wife's father is a trophy hunter and his piece de la resistance is a 162 dried score and it's a monster. 12 points including a small drop. I don't know who scored those in your picts, but they were liberal in their scorekeeping. The wife's old man took a 140 class last year and it was a huge 10 with beams as thick as my wrists.
 
Missouri's Antler Point Restrictions (APR's)

Why does APR suck? Let me count the ways-

First, APR stacks the odds against novice hunters- and as a father and husband who's been in on a number of 'first deer' I can tell you that these hunters need all the help they can get. Many of these are kids, out with Dad or Uncle Fred for their first deer hunt. Under the 'old rules' they'd see maybe 1-5 shootable deer per season; and they might get a safe, sure shot at only one of those. They are thrilled to get any deer at all and even a forkhorn buck is a big deal to them. APR deprives this vitally-important group of opportunities. New hunters are quite literally the future of hunting and the last thing we need is to discourage them.

Second, APR is a slap in the face to 'traditional hunters' who use iron-sighted .30-30's, military rifles and period firearms from 1830 forward. Folks, this is deer hunting at its finest and it is the essence of hunting in general. APR essentially requires that the traditional hunter adds a substantial set of binoculars to his kit; and spend more time 'glassing' than enjoying the nostalgia of the traditional hunt.

Third, APR turns a uniquely American test of hunting & shooting skills into an equipment race. We have done just fine with a 10 year old set of budget binoculars here and most of our 'deer guns' wear carefully-zeroed iron sights. The only 'scoped rifle in the outfit has a 4X on it, which has facilitated precise shots and instant kills at well over 200 yards. Now, by edict of the crowned heads at MDC, all of our optics are obsolete. I suppose we could run down to China-Mart and drop a grand on some new glass; but I am disinclined to have the state dictate how I spend my recreational dollar.

Fourth, APR does nothing to alleviate the hundreds of thousands of dollars in property damage and personal injury caused by deer each year, in Missouri. MDC obviously knows this because the Kansas City and St. Louis areas got a 'hall pass' on APR. Now, this would probably never occur to the Commission- but us 'dayum hillbillys' don't liked to wreck our pickups anymore than them high-falutin' city slickers do! Someone in my neck of the woods learned this first hand. By the third day of the season, there was a spike buck lying dead along 135 Highway, just south of US-50. He was doubtless passed over by hunters but he died just the same and somebody got a repair bill- thanks to APR.

My final complaint with APR is that it promotes the notion that deer hunting is all about 'points and trophies' rather than harvesting the winter meat. Every young deer hunter I've mentored, has been taught exactly the opposite. We've killed a few decent bucks over the years, but shooting a big rack was never the driving force behind the hunt. And frankly- 'an obsession with racks' has never been a character trait of the better hunters I've ever known. I hate to see MDC foster this kind of thinking.

http://sargesrollcall.blogspot.com/2008/11/missouris-antler-point-restriction.html
 
Sarge, I very much enjoyed your post and also feel much the same about the restrictions. My biggest fear is that we will turn off a whole generation of hunters in some areas, something we CANNOT afford to do, IMHO. I had never even given the "simple" deer hunt consideration a thought, and you've made an excellent argument about that factor.

I simply hate the thought that some middle-aged hunters, with BUNCHES of seasons and deer under their belts are pushing for these restrictions in many areas at the expense of those who simply enjoy....."hunting"!
 
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