antler point restrictions

Originally posted by Gundummer:
Buck46, I am in the sometimes I am outsmarted by the deer and had a really good time stage.
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Good for you. I hunt deer primarily with handguns. I am in the "glad the good lord gave me another fall in the woods" stage. Used to be I too shot a lot of scrub horns. Got a 55 gallon drum full of little baskets. Last few I shot, I felt worse takin' them home than goin' home empty handed. Didn't feel like I was successful, but failed. Lotta potential going to waste. Opportunities for others and a good buck for next year denied because of my greed. Then I got selective. Found out that lettin' that scrub horn walk made me feel good, and made the hunt successful, even if I went home with nuttin' in the truck. The buck I told about that I passed on in a previous post was shot the next day by a 14 year old neighbor kid. His first buck and he was proud as hell. His dad had told him I had passed on him earlier and the kid came over with the buck, showed me the good shot he had made and thanked me for lettin' him walk. That made it one of my best seasons I ever had outta 46. As I said before, success isn't always determined by the amount of blood on your knife.

Originally posted by Gundummer:

I have let doe walk when meat hunting because I was looking for something heavier.
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Again, good for you. Not that hard to be patient and wait for a good shot at something worthwhile. Maybe it was a year you ended up with one of those monster 80 pound nubbin' bucks, eh?


Originally posted by Gundummer:

Anybody that thinks they have all the time in the world to just sit and have a deer walk up to them is in the daydream stage.
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Kinda what deer huntin' is all about ain't it? As I said before, very few, if any of us here are deer hunting to survive. We hunt deer because we enjoy the challenge and the thrill of the hunt. Bein' outdoors and sharing the experience with friends and family. Goin' back to that spot in the woods where we got our first buck 40 years ago and relivin' it in our mind. Rememberin' that good one that we missed. To me this is more deer huntin' than takin' a hurried shot at an animal we have not identified because we fear we might go home empty handed today. To me that is better than lookin' at a dead button buck we shot by mistake......again.

Originally posted by Gundummer:

Buck46, if I were you I would lose the cocky, know it all attitude. Accidents can happen to the safest person. We had a safety instructor with an attitude just like yours around here and he lost a son to a gun related incident. Accidents involving guns are nothing to joke about and unfortunately seem to happen to people that think they are safer than anyone else.
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I take hunting safely very seriously. One reason I involve myself in Hunter Education. I never joked about hunting accidents, only implied that folks takin hurried shots at a flash of brown runnin' thru the woods were breakin' one of the fundamental rules of gun safety. Identifying your target and what is beyond it. Snap shooting at a deer so quickly you cannot identify it's sex or approximate age means one is not waiting for a proper shot to present itself and that they are not lookin' beyond the brown flash to make sure they are takin' a safe shot. This is why I said the woods was better of without them.......believe me, it is no joke. You on the other hand almost seem to imply the "safety instructor with an attitude just like yours around here" deserved to have his son shot.

Originally posted by Tom Matiska:

They note yearling spikers can catch up to yearling 6 pointers at the 4.5 year point, but is that too long in the gene pool? .....
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Tom, one mistake many hunters make is assuming a spike is a spike solely because of genetics and will always be an inferior animal. Truth is, and proved in studies, that the first antlers a buck grows is no indication of what he will be later in life....none. Antler size and shape is dictated by many factors including genetics. Age, health and available food supply make a more dramatic impact on antler growth. Many spikes are late fawns born to does that got skipped their first estrous or didn't take till they got bred during a second estrous. Because these fawns are a month later than their cousins, their bodies put more energy in developing their bodies to catch up the first 15 months of their lives, leaving less energy to develop antlers when they are only 1 1/2 years old.

I do not claim to know "it all". I do know that deer management for the general public is not an easy task. Trying to keep numbers high enough to keep hunters happy while keeping them low enough to keep car/motorcycle/deer collisions to a minimum and to keep crop damage under control. I know in my state it is an ongoing process with minor or major changes made every year. As was mentioned before, one of the issues is large management zones. These are areas where habitat and pressure can vary the most with those in fringe or marginal areas within that large zone affected the most. I also know most F&Gs/DNRs are doin' their best to maintain a huntable deer herd for generations to come, so that my grandkids and yours can hopefully experience a quality hunt themselves.
 
Good for you. I hunt deer primarily with handguns. I am in the "glad the good lord gave me another fall in the woods" stage. Used to be I too shot a lot of scrub horns. Got a 55 gallon drum full of little baskets. Last few I shot, I felt worse takin' them home than goin' home empty handed. Didn't feel like I was successful, but failed. Lotta potential going to waste. Opportunities for others and a good buck for next year denied because of my greed. Then I got selective. Found out that lettin' that scrub horn walk made me feel good, and made the hunt successful, even if I went home with nuttin' in the truck. The buck I told about that I passed on in a previous post was shot the next day by a 14 year old neighbor kid. His first buck and he was proud as hell. His dad had told him I had passed on him earlier and the kid came over with the buck, showed me the good shot he had made and thanked me for lettin' him walk. That made it one of my best seasons I ever had outta 46. As I said before, success isn't always determined by the amount of blood on your knife

Probably the best thing I have read on this thread.....
 
It is interesting to read some of the different situations in other parts of the country. We seem to have a problem getting enough hunters to kill deer of any kind. No antler restrictions at all and an exploding deer population.

I have never seen but one mature cow horn deer. So, I'm thinking in this area anyway the young spikes turn in to something else. And, sometimes those funky racks are from injury rather than genetics.

I am sometimes a little amused when somebody says they were culling a buck when it looks to me like they just felt like shooting it and wanted to justify killing a small buck.

Some years I have hunted 70 days or better and saw deer most every day. And, I have been doing it since we had a deer season, maybe 35 years.

I don't have any warm and fuzzy feeling at all that I know what a buck is going to be next year.
 
Come on up to West Virginia, ZeroJunk. The joke there is the "WV 11 Pointer". Sometimes the DNR sets up at a check station and weighs and ages the first 300 to 500 deer that come in. You should see some of the 130-140 pound 3 1/2 year old spikes come in. A lot of the 3, 4, and 5 pointers would only be a legal spike in Pa. On the other hand, we have pulled out deer that I could hardly get on the cart myself and had really good racks. All in the same area. It is as if there are two different breeds of deer in the area. (Which I believe in, by the way.) One year I shot a 6 point that was so small I picked it up by the feet and set it on the truck. I don't know how to age them, but that deer was awful grey in the face. I cannot picture some of those deer ever attaining big racks or gaining any real size. As some people said earlier, AR's just let more inferior deer breed longer. When it comes to Pa., Tom Mataskia pretty much summed it up. It is just not working.
 
I know what you mean GP. The racks on the farm I hunt now are different than the farm I hunted years ago, not as forked. And, the previous farm had a lot of pie bald deer. Haven't seen any on this farm. Lot of variation.
 
Gunplummer, your WV experience is a lot like what I've seen in MO. I am inclined to believe that genetics are the primary factor in whether a buck grows big horns or not. I used to hunt one particular area of Lafayette County that was known for producing big bucks. This was way before APR and guys would work for farmers in the off season, just to get a spot in that area.

Now here's the kicker... those farmer's kids, their hired men and their families hunted the devil out of it and probably 75% of the bucks I saw taken out of there, over 12 years, were sixes or less. The serious rack hunters--guys who spend weeks in the woods scouting before season--still got their 12's and 14's.
 
Originally posted by Sarge:

Now here's the kicker... those farmer's kids, their hired men and their families hunted the devil out of it and probably 75% of the bucks I saw taken out of there, over 12 years, were sixes or less. The serious rack hunters--guys who spend weeks in the woods scouting before season--still got their 12's and 14's.
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Not a surprise and certainly not atypical. In most areas where there are no restrictions, 80-90% of the bucks taken will be 1 1/2 years old. Generally sixes or less. The serious rack hunters you speak about not only spent weeks scouting, but also more than likely passed on several smaller immature bucks before they shot a mature deer. Nuttin' to do with genetics, all about age class. Even tho those others "hunted the devil" outta the property for those 12 years, they were never able to shoot off all the bucks and decimate the buck population. Even tho the "rack hunters" consistently took big bucks off the property, in 12 years, they never destroyed the genetics. Only difference in that scenario and the implementation of ARs is the fact with ARs fewer immature deer will be taken and more mature deer. Overall, the potential for the number of deer taken will be the same.....if the hunters are up to it. In other words, "opening day warriors" will have a tougher time gettin' a deer. 1 1/2 year old deer are the easiest to kill. It is their first hunting season away from the protection of MOM. They are ignorant and inexperienced in escaping mediocre hunters, much less good ones. They run blindly till they get shot. Takin' them out of the picture means it could actually be a challenge to some if they want to shoot a buck. These seem to be the ones that whine the most about ARs. They're afraid they might not be up to the challenge.
 
I would certainly need to see proof of a huge number of 3 year old spikes being taken.
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U will never get that proof.....
The majority of meat hunters just shoot and don't document....They just aren't into management....Only filling the freezer....:(
 
The young buck in the first pic was what 90% of the bucks in this county looked like in this county....Not anymore....AR's work....
 

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Keg said:
U will never get that proof.....
The majority of meat hunters just shoot and don't document....They just aren't into management....Only filling the freezer....:(
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If all these deer are going through DNR checkpoints and getting documented, there's proof.
 
Originally posted by Brian Pfleuger:
I would certainly need to see proof of a huge number of 3 year old spikes being taken.
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Even with proof, a huge number of 3 1/2 year old spikes would indicate a problem with herd health, not genetics. While a 1 1/2 year old spike may or may not be an indication of genetics and the culling of spikes and other inferior racked animals can improve the odds of producing Trophy racks with a given area, producing true trophy racks are not the goal of mandatory ARs. Their goals are to increase herd health by creating better buck/doe ratios, improving hunt quality by making buck sightings more prevalent to the average hunter that hunts public land and by increasing the size and maturity of the average buck taken. The other options to this are generally shorter seasons or less public land access permits which equals less opportunities to hunt for the average Joe. This is unlike voluntary ARs on private property where animals are regularly observed and culled to leave those animals with the most potential. Not only are the size of the animal restricted, but so are hunter numbers. Whereas on a 1000 acres of private land there may be 10 hunters allowed to harvest a deer. No chance of decimating the buck population. On public land that size, with unlimited access, there may be 100 or more that show up on opening day. One way to control the amount of bucks shot is by restrictions on antler size. It's not perfect, but it's generally the best tool the state has to work with. Otherwise you're looking at a lottery system for access permits/buck tags or restricted to certain time periods. Which is most desirable?
 
Brian,

WV does spot checks. All deer must be checked at a station. Not all deer are checked by the DCNR. They randomly set up at check stations with mobile equipment and check a couple hundred. You don't get "Spike". If a deer has 15" long antlers and no brow tines with a couple 1/2" to 3/4" nubs, it is still considered a spike in Pa. and WV. The bizarre thing is these screwed up deer are in the same area the big boys are. I already saw fawns during rifle season that could not have gone over 35 pounds. Honest to god the fawns back came up to about the belly of the mother doe. It is just as if there are two different breeds of deer.
You can't separate herd reduction and AR programs. I hunted Maryland, WV, and Pa. for years. All three either went to AR's or are in the process. They all started out with herd reduction. The hunting went to **** on public land, including less "Quality deer". AR's only work on private or controlled property. If you want to do that on your property fine. I have been paying into hunting for a long time and that money goes to state land. I don't need a couple of elitists telling me how to hunt. I know people that hunt with compound and crossbows. Not for me, but I still hunt with them and don't rag on them, even though the compound bow has helped to ruin bow hunting in Pa.
 
You certainly CAN separate ARs and herd reduction. Maybe most places don't, maybe your place doesn't but the two are not synonymous.

There are freak antlered deer everywhere. Almost anyone with trail cameras sees the bucks that only grew a spike on one side and has 4 on the other, or has one that's a bent over half grown fork or something.

The key is definitively tying an increase/proliferation of these animals to the implementation of an AR. I don't see any scientific evidence that does that. All I see is anecdotes, most of which come from people who opposed ARs before they were implemented and will use ARs to blame for anything they can find that's bad.

Most, if not all, scientific studies that I've seen suggest that ARs improve the average size of bucks.

I'm not saying you're lying or even necessarily wrong, I'm saying that "You should see..." has no meaning without historical context and data sets larger than rumors.
 
Brian, I always object to anything that is "zero tolerance" in its nature. A.R. seems to be Zero tolerance. It makes lifelong, proficient hunters base their decisions on a set of rules put in place to deal with irresponsible idiots. I dont have a gripe with Georgia's system. I would be raising up a ruckus if DNR did not give me a mechanism to eliminate inferior deer.
 
I normally do too but the lifelong, dedicated, KNOWLEDGABLE hunters are a tiny minority.

The only thing that could possibly work would be some sort of test that would have to be passed to ensure that the hunter could identify animals and the APR would apply to anyone who didn't take and pass the test.

It's just not reasonable. Most hunters are not knowledgable. Most don't care to be.

Think about it. If they WERE knowledgable and willing to handle the herd appropriately, none of this would be a question.

Most hunters kill anything they have a tag to kill. A great many kill anything they think they can get away with. That's why the buck ages are poor and the populations suck.

What we COULD do if hunters were knowledgable and cared isn't really relevant. They aren't and they don't.
 
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