antler point restrictions

Originally posted byGunplummer:
I have hunted Pa. for a long time. I used to hunt Maryland. I still hunt West Virginia. There is one guy on this thread that absolutely does not know what he is talking about. The Pa. deer herd is a wreck. I still occasionally hunt Bucks county (Special Regs/Kill all the doe) and the buck to doe ratio is so out of wack that I would swear in court that there is now more buck than doe down there. People that embrace this so called management are almost always hunting on posted, controlled property. That is the only way that type of management can work. Up here in the mountains, there are now way less large bucks than there used to be. In the 80's when the deer stupidity started, there were mountains around here that would have made deer qualify as an endangered species. That is not a joke. The Game Commission in Pa. could not manage a hotdog stand.


Everyone is entitled to their opinion. We all know that opinions vary. But altho overall hunter success is a good indication of whether a deer herd is being properly managed, the success rate of an individual hunter doesn't mean a thing. If an individual hunter is continually unsuccessful while others all around him are successful, it cannot be considered the fault of the management plan. According to the reported numbers of deer killed in PA, the deer herd seems to be in good shape. Total deer killed is consistently up 2-300% since 1980. Seems some folks are still having success somewhere. Total hunters is on the decline everywhere. Not because of lack of deer, but mostly because of lack of access to good hunting land. This is why sound management programs are so important on public land. Many places we used to hunt are now posted or by lease only. Hunter numbers are also down because us baby boomers are gettin' to old to hunt/dying and the new generation is not being actively recruited.


Here's a good link to another opinion on Antler restrictions in Pa. I consider it a pretty reliable source. Just my opinion tho. I found these two comments interesting.....

“Guys who don’t like antler restrictions complain until they take the biggest buck of their life, and then they say it’s the greatest thing since sliced bread,”

“It just goes to show you that hunting mature bucks is far different from hunting 1 1/2-year-olds, and that is something that hunters in Pennsylvania are going to have to adjust to if they want to fill their tags.”



Here's the whole story......... Antler Restrictions in PA.
 
In some cases yes. Majority of deer hunters in most states in the lower 48 are a "once a year" hunter. They are the ones that buy the majority of licenses and because they make up the majority, are the ones the wildlife managers listen to the most. If they say they want a better chance at a bigger deer, the managers listen. Those folks who hunt deer year round and spend a lot of time in the woods, don't generally need the state to tell them to wait till next year. They generally have a self-imposed APR. State imposed APRs have little or no effect on their harvest. Where APRs work well, are on areas of land open to public hunting where deer are heavily pressured. Land that is good deer habitat but does not have a large herd to to unrestricted hunting. Bucks in this type of scenario have a short expected lifespan because as some folks have mentioned, they shoot the first buck they see, because they don't see many. They suspect the bucks just don't get big because they never see any big bucks. Add to this a low population because most bucks are shot off and you get little or no permits for antlerless deer. Now you have a unhealthy doe to buck ratio. One way to change this is to shorten the season. But that leads to a lessened economic impact because of less licenses sold and hunters in the area for fewer days. The other way is to leave the season length and restrict what folks can harvest. Giving them more deer and larger deer to see, when they used to see fewer keeps them coming back, even tho they don't get to take something home every year. Most hunters are conservationists and know how the system works and appreciate the fact the their local F&G is trying to keep the quality in their hunt. Shooters that just want to kill don't care, they just want to shoot something and are upset when they can't. Some, like tahunua001's friends have to go out at night, outside the legal season to get that thrill. Like all poachers, they try to validate their poaching, but the excuses are always the same. "There are too many deer anyway and the F&G don't know what they're doing!". Yep, as if poachers know wildlife biology and animal husbandry better than the professionals.

Anyone involved with Whitetails Unlimited, Quality Deer Management and other organizations that promote the "Let 'em grow and let 'em grow" know that lettin' smaller bucks walk does indeed improve the quality of bucks in the area. But this has to be combined with the philosophy of a healthy overall population and buck/doe ratio. Bucks that never grow big racks do very little breeding. Large bucks with dominate genes are never shot off completely when there are good numbers of big bucks around. Deer DO NOT get inbred when populations are high and the gene pool is large. Thinking so just shows one's ignorance of animal husbandry and genetics.

APRs may or not work in every area for every scenario. No state regs are perfect in anyone's eyes. They generally are intended to please and to make the hunt fun for the majority of those involved. Voluntarily passing up small bucks in an area may prevent it from becoming mandatory. Voluntary catch and release fishing is a prime example. Many states have kept limits and length restrictions to previous levels only because the fishermen themselves have not keep smaller fish or kept less. At one time, going fishing and not coming home with your limit was thought to be a sign of a poor fisherman. Now it can be the sign of a true sportsman. Success does not have to be what you put in the back of your truck to show your buddy, but what kind of experience you have in the field. To many of us, this is the difference between a hunter and a shooter.

Very good post buck460XVR....Your others too....;)

I don't understand the philosophy of someone saying they are a meat hunter..but wanting to shoot a young buck but not a doe....Does are good eating....We have 8 hunters on 800 acres..they are required to shoot 1 doe each per season....We have been doing that for over 20 years....If there is plenty to eat..many of the does have twins....The doe population does not drop....
As far as bucks..the older they get..the smarter they are....It takes little skill to harvest a young buck....The only answer is to let them walk....Antler restrictions will get U more mature bucks....
 
The "CWD problem" in north MO is a direct result of poor management of a high dollar hunting ranch in Linn&Macon counties. The high deer population in this area put the possibility of CWD spreading at a high priority. The point restriction has been lifted in the CWD containment area but I seriously doubt this meager consolation will be successful. Just my opinion but a higher number of landowner tags and the choice for landowners to sell or donate their tags as they desire would have a bigger effect. The Mrs and I get 3 tags each for rifle season and I get more for archery season but I still end up buying tags just so I can manage the does on our place. If MDC gave me 10-15 tags that I could give to the kids/grandkids, we'd all be happier.
 
Antler restrictions are terrible for long term Buck management. You take the best deer out of the gene pool and you leave the inferior deer to pass their genes on until they die of old age. Antler restrictions are pure craziness. It will cause there to be more bucks, but they will be inferior bucks.
 
Just be like Idaho and release a bunch of wolves. They will kill everything and you wont have to worry about inferior deer!
 
Antler restrictions are terrible for long term Buck management. You take the best deer out of the gene pool and you leave the inferior deer to pass their genes on until they die of old age. Antler restrictions are pure craziness. It will cause there to be more bucks, but they will be inferior bucks.

This is not what I have witnessed....We have had this program set up on a CO-OP....Thousands of acres....This was 20 years ago..well before TPWD ever enacted it....I saw one mature buck 4.5 years old..last year..that would not meet the 13 inch requirement..only one....Once the bucks get to a mature age..they are harder to hunt and therefore many survive til the next season..plus the young ones are able to mature....
 
For all of you who posted about apr causing your herd to be overrun with small antler bucks that never get bigger, I have a video for you.http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=boFKRM8Ugdk&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DboFKRM8Ugdk Learn from it. It will teach you how to age a deer on the hoof. I suspect you are seeing very young deer, not the same deer year after year. The older larger antler deer are smarter and don't hang out with the does anymore. If you want a bigger buck go where the does are not. If your a meat hunter take the does and stop complaining that you can't shoot the tasty young bucks.

What kind of deer management is there for public hunting lands in Western Maryland --- where you hardly ever see a deer --- and if you decide to shoot a buck during deer season... you kinda wonder if it's the last buck on the mountain?
Think you answered your own question.
The resident's of Western Maryland...just voted down the introduction of an Elk herd in Western Maryland; for some of the very same reasons they voted down whitetail antler restrictions.
Sounds like the voters there are better at game management than the highly educated biologists that came up with the plan that was voted out.
 
Sarge, I read your blog. Your example of the young buck hit by a car is a good argument about young dear being hunted. However the reason the state put the restriction in was likely to increase the number of does taken each year. Taking one doe in the fall also takes two fawns. Reduction of the overall population is the intent. Thereby reducing vehicle/deer collisions. Also there are usually more does in the herd than bucks. Statistically that means more of the vehicle collisions involve does. Letting bucks mature and taking a doe instead cuts the herd size significantly more than taking that young buck.
 
I'm a cop and an old hunter, Al. I pay attention to these things. In my little corner of west central MO, we have definitely seen more protected bucks hit since APR spread south.
 
Originally posted by Sarge: I am against it for reasons detailed here.

Missouri's 'Antler Point' Restriction

First, APR stacks the odds against novice hunters- and as a father and husband who's been in on a number of 'first deer' I can tell you that these hunters need all the help they can get. Many of these are kids, out with Dad or Uncle Fred for their first deer hunt. Under the 'old rules' they'd see maybe 1-5 shootable deer per season; and they might get a safe, sure shot at only one of those. They are thrilled to get any deer at all and even a forkhorn buck is a big deal to them. APR deprives this vitally-important group of opportunities. New hunters are quite literally the future of hunting and the last thing we need is to discourage them.


3 paragraphs above this statement you state that the APR does not apply to the youth portion of the season. This not only gives youth hunters the opportunity to take a non APR buck that other hunters cannot, but a trophy as well. Most places where APRs are in effect there are also liberal doe tags, again, giving the first time/youth hunter a good chance of success. Unlike many think, after the first year or two of implementation, APRs do not lessen the amount of bucks available for harvest. Those deer available for harvest are just older, thus smarter and for some harder to get. One reason first time hunters and youth generally get a pass.

Second, APR is a slap in the face to 'traditional hunters' who use iron-sighted .30-30's, military rifles and period firearms from 1830 forward. Folks, this is deer hunting at its finest and it is the essence of hunting in general. APR essentially requires that the traditional hunter adds a substantial set of binoculars to his kit; and spend more time 'glassing' than enjoying the nostalgia of the traditional hunt.

This is bull. Most of us that shoot primitive weapons do so for the challenge of the hunt. If we wanted to shoot high volumes of small deer, we'd use scoped high powered rifles like most everyone else. Last deer season I shot a doe with my handgun. She was standing next to a small 9 point buck. Did not need binos to tell me how many points he had nor did I need a book to tell me he was only 1 1/2 year old. I let him walk altho he was the easier shot, mainly because she was the better eatin' of the two and I hoped he'd make til this year. Neighbor shot him the next day. Not a big deal....he probably would have been legal under most APRs anyway. Bow hunters are some of the most selective deer hunters in the woods. At bow ranges, we do not need high priced binos to tell us how big the rack is. Most bucks I see during bow season that are within range give me plenty of time to check out the size of their rack. That is what the "nostalgia" of bow hunting is all about. Last buck I shot was with a handgun @ 25 yards. I could tell when he was layin' in his bed, without the use of any optics, he was a 8 with about a 16'' spread. After the shot, he still had the same rack. The range limits of traditional weapons do not require any special "substantial" set of binos, what was used before, if any, is just fine. What one does need to do, is to take that extra moment to make sure the deer is legal. No different than trying to "grow" spikes on the baldy standing in front of you now.


My final complaint with APR is that it promotes the notion that deer hunting is all about 'points and trophies' rather than harvesting the winter meat.


Again......APRs are generally tied in with liberal doe/antlerless tags. A doe is always better eatin' than a young stinky buck. APRs while giving one more opportunity to shoot a trophy, also gives one the opportunity to SEE more bucks, because the young bucks that run and run during hunting season are not shot off the first day. This notion that one must shoot something with horn, any horn instead of a baldy is the macho-ism that brough about poor herd health and unbalanced ratios in the first place.

I did not touch on all you arguments because many of the others had to do with deer numbers.....again something that most management plans that use APRs consider. Numbers do need to be controlled to limit car/deer collision and crop/ornamentals damage. APRs do not increase the deer herd, in most cases just the opposite. What they do change is the profile and make-up of the herd.

In my little corner of west central MO, we have definitely seen more protected bucks hit since APR spread south.

In your blog, you allude that APR contributes to more deer/car collisions because hunters don't take the small bucks. Now you are saying that it contributes to more deer/car collisions because there are more large bucks. Maybe you are just seeing more bucks in general hit than before because the buck/doe ratio is better balanced than before. Have overall deer/car collisions increased in areas where APRs are implemented or is it just more bucks are gettin' hit in those areas? One says the herd is bigger, the other says there are just more bucks in the herd.
 
Buck-

Not all novice hunters are youth hunters and the youth portion is but a fraction of the season.

Prior to this APR, traditional hunters could take any deer throughout the season, if they had the appropriate tag.

APR does promote the notion that deer hunting is about 'points and trophies'. The promise of bigger bucks 'someday' is invariably used when trying to sell it to hunters.

What I said about car/deer accidents is pretty clear.

Finally, I do not expect that everyone is going to agree with my position on APR. The last thing I'm interested in is arguing about it. You have your opinion and I have mine, which is offered free of charge. Don't leave any money in the can if you disagree.
 
Old habits die hard. I grew up in Cali. No Does and Bucks had to be fork horn or better. I doubt that those requirements have changed much since I left. BTW.....eyeguards dont count.
 
Exactly right Buck. I are and am a traditional hunter myself. And yes it has Nothing to do with points, rack size , etc.
 
On our farms we are seeing more and bigger bucks BUT I also agree that killing the top end of the bucks allows the small racked, but mature bucks to propagate which is counter to my best interests. We intentionally kill quite a few mature but smaller racked 8 pointers. I allow myself to kill a bigger buck every couple of years.
I just want to see more liberal landowner permits and a wider set of options as to what and how landowners can use their tags.
 
Keg, antler restrictions do not lead to huge bucks being grown. Common sense harvesting is what leads to trophy bucks. We harvest huge deer for our area. There are about 1000 acres that me and the neighbors have. We all hunt the same way. We do not shoot young bucks. We do not shoot immature bucks. We shoot mature bucks that have poor genetics. An old spike, 4 point, or 6 point is going to be eliminated. An 8? Not until he gets very old.
 
Keg, antler restrictions do not lead to huge bucks being grown. Common sense harvesting is what leads to trophy bucks. We harvest huge deer for our area. There are about 1000 acres that me and the neighbors have. We all hunt the same way. We do not shoot young bucks. We do not shoot immature bucks. We shoot mature bucks that have poor genetics. An old spike, 4 point, or 6 point is going to be eliminated. An 8? Not until he gets very old.
I never said huge bucks...I said mature bucks...BUT!....a young buck will never be a huge buck...He has to grow and mature first...AR's help get him there....
Show me some pics of old spikes..4's..or 6's..that yall have harvested....Post the pics on here....
We don't have em cause we don't see any(I do remember one old fork horn a long time ago..but he had worn out teeth and had been on decline..and 2 narrow width bucks over a 20 year span and on several thousand acres..not enough to be concerned about)....Every buck we harvest is aged..many by wildlife biologists(they check them opening weekend)....
I will say..that since U and your neighbors already manage the herd..U are less affected by AR's....Antler restrictions help more where there is no management practices..where folks shoot the first buck with horns....
Not everyone is into "common sense harvesting" as U say..but with restrictions..they will think about it before they pull on a young buck....
 
Why would I take a picture of a spike, 4, or 6 point?:rolleyes:
Bucks with bad genetics need to be eliminated. A.R. protects bad genetics.
 
What's wrong with these laws is, if the deer hasn't grown at least 4 points on each side by the time he's 2.5 years old, he will probably never reach that threshold. So he gets a free pass to live and spread his crappy genes.

The only way to properly manage a deer herd and get big bucks is to be able to estimate the approximate age of the deer by looking at it and culling the older bucks with small racks and let the young bucks that actually CAN grow decent antlers live till they reach maturity. A buck usually "peaks" around 4.5 or 5.5 years and during that time he can breed and make several sons just like him. But if the deer with good genes are taken out of the herd before they reach maturity and the cull deer keep living and making more cull deer, then it doesn't take long until you have NO deer with good genes and NO big bucks.

This type of management is easier said than done if you have less than about 500 acres to yourself to hunt. Because even if you know how to manage the herd it doesn't mean your neighbor will.

It's a problem with no solution unless several hunters in a several hundred acre radius agree to work together on it.
 
points

I'm with hogdogs, I'm not so sure that letting scrub bucks age is a positive step towards trophy racks.

And I don't like the idea of the state stepping into my stand any further and requiring me to count points. Alabama WMA's, of which 1 I live very close to and hunt often, has a point count and nobody asked me about it, though the state alleges they sent out a survey.

At the check station where I frequent during the gun hunts ( I usually bow hunt the WMA) you simply see an age class wiped out, 2-3 yr old 6 points,with an occasional excellent buck. And lots of does, as we have either sex hunts.

The state puts little money into enhancing their lands, private clubs adjacent feed and manage lands heavily, and draw many deer off the state property in years of poor mast. The WMA hunters shackled with the points count rule don't see deer, and the club hunters do.

Seems all backwards to me.
 
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