Antique pre 1898 handgun transfer problem!!!

Of course thats true unless you talk to the STATE POLICE, FIREARMS DIVISION, which I did. It actually their JOB to answer these types of questions, and they do HAVE to know.
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That's a pretty important piece of missing context! But in Rhode Island, we do not have a "Firearms Division" within the SP. So you're pretty much at the mercy of whoever you talk to- some are more knowledgeable than others. In fact, it is the Department of Environmental Management that certifies you to be able to purchase a handgun. As if that makes much sense...
 
I really thought every state would have one. It makes following the laws much easier because we all break laws due to ignorance but in the courts, ignorance is rarely, rather never, acceptable. Maybe they will get one in Rhode Island eventually. I ended up saving the number in my cell for purchasing disputes or for other types of questions.
 
It is a common misinterpretation of federal law, that a gun made before 1899 is not antique if ammo is still available for it.
I run into this misinterpretation 3 or 4 times a year.



There are lots of dealers who just disregard antique status. I have seen this often with the Finnish M39. A high percentage of these are antiques. To determine manufacture date of the receiver, you must pull the receiver from the stock and look at the date code on the bottom of the tang.

I have seen many gun stores, as well as online gun dealers, who don't bother, and require a FFL for any M39 they sell.
CYA carried to the extreme, I guess they feel, better safe than sorry.

Even though these dealers are not going by federal rules, you have the choice, play by their rules, or find someone else to buy a gun from.
 
Maybe they will get one in Rhode Island eventually.
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Probably not. Rhode Island is anticipating a $400 million deficit for each of the next 3 years. But aside from that, there are actually very few laws in this state. An interesting comparison is made with Connecticut. I forget the actual number of words, but the CT state statutes are about 3 times are large.

Rhode Islanders are a bit lazy and sloppy when it comes to law. Or maybe they're just all libertarians? I have yet to tell and I have been here more than a decade. I've lived in a lot of different places and Rhode Island is definitely the most bizarre. Heck, until last year prostitution was legal indoors, the only state in the Union!

Unfortunately, there is one law in RI that just breaks my heart: No NFA items allowed. Period.
 
It is a common misinterpretation of federal law, that a gun made before 1899 is not antique if ammo is still available for it. I run into this misinterpretation 3 or 4 times a year.
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Ironically after I told a gun collector friend of mine this whole story, he responds with "well they're not antique if they fire a common cartridge, regardless of manufacture date" so I said, "no thats not true. That statute applies to replica firearms of antiques such as conversions. Any gun before 1899 is antique." Then he says "well the dealers paper antique guns a lot" so I said "I don't care what the dealers do, I'm telling you what the law is, straight from the state FIREARMS division" I think he still didn't believe me. :rolleyes: Who would reference what a dealer does as a support that they're right about a law? A lot of dealers don't know the laws well and many don't really know what they're doing.
 
hey petah, did you read all of your link?

(16) The term "antique firearm" means:

(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
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Thats right from your own link! :eek:
 
Hi, Winchester 73,

I am sure you are a nice guy, but boy do you get upset about antiques. Do lighten up a bit; I am reliably informed that heart attacks are no fun at all.

FWIW, state police usually have a "firearms section" when state law gives them a major role in firearms registration, licensing or transfer control. The only "firearms section" in other states will be firearms examiners, who are firearms forensic experts, not experts on firearms law.

Jim
 
I am sure you are a nice guy, but boy do you get upset about antiques. Do lighten up a bit; I am reliably informed that heart attacks are no fun at all.
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Thanks for the concern. I too agree that heart attacks are no fun at all. Luckily I'm a tad too young to have one, at least a natural one, so my goal now needs to be to strive not to develop one. Certain things do make me mad, I guess guns sometimes do. I like to think of myself as a nice guy, but I can see how many of my posts can be miscontrued.
 
simonkenton said:
It is a common misinterpretation of federal law, that a gun made before 1899 is not antique if ammo is still available for it.
I run into this misinterpretation 3 or 4 times a year.
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It could be because there are two different definitions for antique firearms in the regulation.

Under the National Firearms Act, firearms that use currently available fixed cartridges are not antiques, regardless of age.

Under the Gun Control Act, the type of ammunition does not matter if the firearm was manufactured prior to 1899.

PetahW said:
Sec. 5845. Definitions

(g) Antique firearm:The term "antique firearm" means ANY FIREARM NOT DESIGNED or redesigned FOR using rim fire or CONVENTIONAL CENTER FIRE IGNITION WITH FIXED AMMUNITION and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
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The section you quoted [5845(g)] was from the National Firearms Act and does not apply in this case

The NFA definition only matters if you are dealing with NFA regulated firearms such as machine guns or short barrel firearms.
 
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Thanks for that clarification EOD; so an 1870s original Gatling gun in 45-70 would still be a class III item, but a modern replica of the French mitrailleusse with it's needle ignition paper cartridge would not be (actually those were 13 mm, are they DDs?).
 
Thanks for that clarification EOD; so an 1870s original Gatling gun in 45-70 would still be a class III item,
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No, that would NOT be considered an NFA weapon unless it was operated by an electric motor which, if I recall, was not available on Gatlings until the very late 19th or very early 20th century. Only fully automatic weapons are considered NFA weapons if they are made before 1899 (such as a Model 1895 Colt machine gun).
 
A little off the subject, but if a guns age can't be tracked from a serial number, does a visible patent date, say Feb 4, 1896, establish it as an antique?
 
That patent date is not going to establish it as an antique.

The Colt SAA pistol was patented in 1873. Many, many were made before 1899.
But, many more were made after 1898.
 
A little off the subject, but if a guns age can't be tracked from a serial number, does a visible patent date, say Feb 4, 1896, establish it as an antique?
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No. The only way you could establish this as an antique would be if there were verifiable information that the gun in question was only produced between certain years that predated Jan. 1, 1899.
 
One thread said "the state police cleared it up"???. I've yet to find anyone (except ATF headquarters) that knew 18USC921, 922, & 925 completely plus several others that define firearms. It is quite complex and the guy holding the gun is responsible....state police ain't.:rolleyes:
 
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