Anticipate some changes in online purchasing of ammo

M

MLeake

New member
I ran into an interesting problem today with AIMSurplus, a distributor that had received ringing endorsements on TFL. This isn't an AIM bash, as you'll see as you read on; it just happened that my first encounter with the upcoming issue happened in a transaction with AIM.

I had placed my first ever order with them over the weekend, for some bulk 9mm.

Received an email this morning, saying that for my first purchase with them, I would need to provide some ID, to verify that I was of legal age for the purchase.

I found this odd, as I've never had to do this with an online distributor, so I called their sales number. The guy on the other end explained that several prosecutors have started bringing suits and/or setting up stings against companies for failing to verify the ages of ammo purchasers. This ties in with some info that Tom Servo had posted, about crackdowns on age verification in the recent past.

The guy at AIM said that the other online distributors will probably start doing something similar as far as requiring some legal form of ID age verification, when they get hit with similar suits or complaints.

Just ducky...

Anyway, I'm not a huge fan of giving out copies of my DL, or MIL ID. Anything with numbers that can be used for identity theft is not something I like to give out. Luckily, AIM accepted a copy of my concealed permit. Pretty sure identity thieves don't use those (how would they explain having THAT number, but not a DL or SSN?).

Problem solved, but it will be interesting to see how many other permutations of the same basic issue come up in the near future.
 
I had to provide the same information the first time doing business with them as well and that was over 2 years ago. If I remember correctly, I had to do the same thing with MidwayUSA. I just assumed it was a normal and common occurance.
 
I thought all the online sellers clearly stated on their websites that all ammo sales required proof of I.D.?:confused:
 
If I remember correctly...

... with ammoman, cheaperthandirt, ammunitiontogo, midway, cabelas, georgia-arms, CMP, and bassproshop.... I just had to check a box stating that I was of legal age, or fill in a DOB field.

I know I've never submitted any other form of ID up until now.

YMMV.
 
Some websites like Midway and Cabelas have not required ID from me. On the other hand, AIMsurplus always has. They're very accomodating, though.
 
Some online retailers used to insist that you send a fax or emailed image of ID proving age. Some didn't. I did business with the ones who didn't, as I'm not fond of giving out that much (easily intercepted) personal information to strangers.

Does it fix anything? Nope. Does it make the lawyers, who really do run everything, happy? Yep. Potential liability is the monster under the bed for every major corporation, so they're going to reduce their exposure to risk at every possible turn.

With the ATF getting hinky about some perceived epidemic of juvenile handgun ammunition ownership, it follows that the lawyers are pressuring CEO's to cover all their bases.

There was another recent thread on this, and this is the official word from the ATF: if the buyer states (without being prompted) that handgun-caliber ammunition is being bought for use only in a rifle, then the sale is legal at age 18. If the dealer has reason to believe the ammunition will be used in a handgun, the purchaser must be 21.

A few months ago, the hot-button issue was the sale of ammunition to potential terrorists, and an advisory was sent out regarding that. Retailers were directed to watch out for foreign nationals and illegal aliens, and not to sell them ammunition.

Yeesh. I really have no idea how retailers were supposed to be able to discern a tourist from another country buying ammo to shoot from a guy spearheading an invasion by buying a box of .380.

Nonetheless, I'm keeping my eye on the Flemish for now. You never know.
 
"Retailers were directed to watch out for foreign nationals and illegal aliens, and not to sell them ammunition."


Wouldn't this be considered racial profiling? Oh wait, that guy looks like an illegal alien, no ammo for him. I wonder If I look like an illegal? What a wonderfull world we live in.
 
The Flemish?

There's only two kinds of people I can't stand: Those intolerant of other cultures, and the Dutch.

Hey, wait, is Ned Flanders Flemish?

Cheers,

M
 
AIM is the only online source I have found that requires ID. The others just post "this item requires you be 18 yrs old or older to purchase" or similar. They have been saying that other retailers will be doing the same soon, for several years.

Other than this one thing they have been very good to deal with. Accurate advertising, quick shipments, good prices and availability.
 
Hey, wait, is Ned Flanders Flemish?
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No, Ned Flanders is a fictional cartoon character. Like Bullwinkle. Or Joan Rivers.

When we got the advisory about foreign nationals, I just carded snooty Anglo-Saxon types. Remember, kids: you never know who's buying ammo for Adolph.

To highlight the underlying stupidity, consider this. I had three Indian nationals come in the other day. They wanted to shoot a pistol. It's something they don't get to do at home. If I set them up with an instructor, lent them a gun, and gave them ammunition, would I be breaking the law? After all, they weren't permanent residents, just tourists.

Furthermore, there are many places where they'd be mistaken for middle-eastern, and could have really run across some ugly prejudice. What's the point? It protects nobody.

So, I'm supposed to card Hamshed and possibly contact the police if he wants to buy ammunition? Is that even my responsibility? How about Mr. Gonzales? He's hispanic, and could be an illegal alien! Who cares if he has a driver's license? It could be forged!

We all have a certain responsibility not to furnish ammunition if someone gives us the impression they're going to do something questionable with it, but the directive from the ATF turns things into a certain sort of potential profiling. It could also get a retailer sued for discrimination.

As for the age issue, it raises a catch-22 for folks between 18 and 21. While they cannot buy a handgun from a dealer at that age, they can possess one. This regulation simply makes it impossible for them to practice with it, at least if they're honest, and it serves no real purpose.

Consider that it's legal for 18-year-olds to buy reloading components. If they reload ammunition with the intention of using it in a handgun, can they be charged with the manufacture?

Hopefully, the D'Cruz case will clarify the whole issue a bit more.
 
Tom? You don't suppose this is a backlash from that suit, do you?...
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Yeronner, I'd never imply such a blasphemous sentiment! Perish the thought!

Actually, it might have less to do with the D'Cruz case and more to do with Lautenberg rattling his ghost-of-Christmas-past chains. He went on a tear about handgun ammunition a few years ago. I'll see if I can dig up the memo.
 
I have bought ammo from a couple of sites that state they require proof of age before selling ammo, but none of them have ever asked for it from me other than hitting the check box saying I am over 21. I will have to see if that changes on my next purchase or if I get grandfathered in.
 
Tom Servo: ...Retailers were directed to watch out for foreign nationals and illegal aliens, and not to sell them ammunition...
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Do you have a cite for this?
Federal law clearly allows the sale of firearms and ammunition to aliens in the US legally.

I just looked through every email and every FFL Newsletter I've received over the last year and found no such prohibition.

Tom Servo:....To highlight the underlying stupidity, consider this. I had three Indian nationals come in the other day. They wanted to shoot a pistol. It's something they don't get to do at home. If I set them up with an instructor, lent them a gun, and gave them ammunition, would I be breaking the law?
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No. Federal law does not require a 4473 for a firearm rental that does not leave your premises. The same federal laws allows me to rent a machine gun without paying for a $200 tax stamp.


Tom Servo: ...After all, they weren't permanent residents, just tourists....
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If you read your 4473 you'll see that tourists can purchase firearms and ammunition if they meet one of the exceptions to the law. Basically they must first purchase a hunting license valid in the state where they are acquiring the firearm.
 
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Do you have a cite for this? Federal law clearly allows the sale of firearms and ammunition to aliens in the US legally.
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Bad wording on my part. I meant "foreign nationals only visiting." Theoretically, a foreigner has to be either a permanent resident, or they have to fall under the exceptions, to purchase a firearm. We were reminded by the ATF that such requirements also applied to ammunition, and to check the ID of anyone we suspected of not meeting those requirements.

...which theoretically means, anyone with a foreign accent.

No. Federal law does not require a 4473 for a firearm rental that does not leave your premises.
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Right, so I'm not selling them the gun, so no law is broken. However, the ammunition would be sold, thus entering into a grey area.
 
Tom Servo
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Do you have a cite for this? Federal law clearly allows the sale of firearms and ammunition to aliens in the US legally.
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Bad wording on my part. I meant "foreign nationals only visiting." Theoretically, a foreigner has to be either a permanent resident, or they have to fall under the exceptions, to purchase a firearm.
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There is nothing "theoretical" about it. Federal law is never theoretical, that's why it's law.

Tom Servo:...We were reminded by the ATF that such requirements also applied to ammunition, and to check the ID of anyone we suspected of not meeting those requirements.
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Again do you have proof of this? Your first post mentioned "an advisory" being sent by ATF. I would appreciate a copy as I never got any such notice.

.
 
I've been buying ammo online for about 2-3 years now. I had to fax a copy of my DL first time I ordered. Personally, I see nothing wrong with this. I wouldn't want kids or criminals who happen to get hold of a credit card be able to call up and place an order for ammo.
 
I was denied in store at cabelas even after expalining my use of ammo as for rifle only. Now the online routes a hassle......wow
 
Tom Servo
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Again do you have proof of this? Your first post mentioned "an advisory" being sent by ATF. I would appreciate a copy as I never got any such notice.
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It was the November 2008 newsletter. Ours arrived with a notice that we were to check the residency status of anyone we thought was not a citizen.
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Huh?:confused:

Tom.......that FFL Newsletter is two years old, hardly " a few months ago". It also doesn't support anything you claimed:
Tom Servo
....A few months ago, the hot-button issue was the sale of ammunition to potential terrorists, and an advisory was sent out regarding that. Retailers were directed to watch out for foreign nationals and illegal aliens, and not to sell them ammunition....
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Not only is there no "hot-button issue", but the November '08 FFL Newsletter says nothing regarding potential terrorists and nothing about not selling ammunition to foreign nationals. The first paragraph plainly explains how a non US citizen may purchase ammunition. None of that has changed in YEARS.

Who is sending you these ATF "notices"?
 
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