Depends on the vest, bullet placement, as well as the state of mind and "chemical enhancement" of the person being shot. The Tyler police spokesman said it appeared that Arroyo Sr. was hit in the armor multiple times at the courthouse, and the North Hollywood bank robbers were also shot many times in their armor--all with apparently little to no effect.
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Another thread about Tyler, TX, but an important question.
- Thread starter itgoesboom
- Start date
Para Bellum said:But if there is the need to use it, I hope to have the coolness to dial 911 first, report the situation and describe myself and my support action to the police before I start taking said action ...
I learned from hard experience - if you describe someone to 9-1-1 be sure it's the bad guy. Remember that they may be flooded with calls about the situation and the call center gets chaotic; some dispatcher writes down (or types) suspect instead of caller OR the responding cops, besides trying to dodge traffic, hear over the siren, are trying to piece together the situation from sketchy radio reports and confuse citizen description with suspect description.
Remember, their focus is on "who's the bad guy?"; "What's he doing?"; "How many are there?" etc. If you're good at providing good, descriptive information they'll keep you on the line. Once you've provided a good synopsis of the BG's location, you can tell the 911-Op; "I'm between cars in the parking lot with my .308 and trying to get a clear shot." Or something to that effect. I suspect that'll sober 'em up at the call center!
Double Naught Spy
New member
Opening up with any gun, a pistol or a rifle you have retrieved from a car, is potentially problematic as the police and other bystanders may mistake you for the bad guy. The issue of using a rifle is equally problematic as using a pistol. Even if you call 911 and describe yourself and that you are a good guy, there is no certainty that in the fog of war that the cops arriving on scene will have received that information, been able to remember that information with everything else they are getting, or that there haven't been other 911 calls reporting you as a shooter (and hence the bad guy) by some other observer.
As far as whether impacts to the vest from pistol calibers causing problems for a vested bad guy, it all depends. If you ever get a chance to check the Second Chance documented cases of 'Saves' then you will learn that many of the people shot did not realize they were shot or did not realize they were shot more than once. Some claim to have thought that the shots toward them must have missed, later to realize that they are bruised, have some discomfort, or have damaged clothing and vest. One officer apparently did not realize he had been shot until undressing and the slug fell out and dropped to the floor.
I just love the comments about the guns used. I know there are several reports of guns and calibers for Arroyo and Wilson, Arroyo's apparently not being an AK and contrary to what I have read reported here, one news clip had Wilson's as a .40 Glock.
Duxman, I assure you that it isn't just the antis who misinterpret or misrepresent information. The transgression is blatant on both sides of the gun issue. Some years back, I compared death rates reported by the NRA and MMM. Both cited the same CDC study. Both lied, massaging the data to fit their political perspectives. I was unable to arrive at either total based on the data in the CDC study that both claimed as the basis for their information.
As far as whether impacts to the vest from pistol calibers causing problems for a vested bad guy, it all depends. If you ever get a chance to check the Second Chance documented cases of 'Saves' then you will learn that many of the people shot did not realize they were shot or did not realize they were shot more than once. Some claim to have thought that the shots toward them must have missed, later to realize that they are bruised, have some discomfort, or have damaged clothing and vest. One officer apparently did not realize he had been shot until undressing and the slug fell out and dropped to the floor.
I just love the comments about the guns used. I know there are several reports of guns and calibers for Arroyo and Wilson, Arroyo's apparently not being an AK and contrary to what I have read reported here, one news clip had Wilson's as a .40 Glock.
Duxman, I assure you that it isn't just the antis who misinterpret or misrepresent information. The transgression is blatant on both sides of the gun issue. Some years back, I compared death rates reported by the NRA and MMM. Both cited the same CDC study. Both lied, massaging the data to fit their political perspectives. I was unable to arrive at either total based on the data in the CDC study that both claimed as the basis for their information.
Para Bellum
New member
.308 into the vest?
ok, I have learned what I feared: A handgun shot to the vest can happen to have no effect what so ever.
Let's assume we have our .308 in the trunk and get a chance to shoot the bad guy in front of the court house. Would a well placed shot from approx 100-150 yds with a .308 rifle penetrate modern vests? Would it at least push the bad guy down?
ok, I have learned what I feared: A handgun shot to the vest can happen to have no effect what so ever.
Let's assume we have our .308 in the trunk and get a chance to shoot the bad guy in front of the court house. Would a well placed shot from approx 100-150 yds with a .308 rifle penetrate modern vests? Would it at least push the bad guy down?
thegunsofNevada
Inactive
I know of no body armor in the world that, stock, can take rifle rounds...However, you can easily buy 'rifle plates' that will boost protection to Lvl. III...As far as I know, and I could be wrong, plain Kevlar only goes up to Lvl IIIA, which is suppopsed to be good for anything up to 9mm or so.
A .308 rifle round will go through body armor like a knife through butter, as well as trees or any matter of interveining cover, as showen in the North Hollywood incident when Matasamarenu (One of the suspects) opened up with a converted HK91.
As for feeling a pistol round? Remember that people dont get knocked down by bullets much, because the force exerted is matched by recoil (Just in a smaller area), so even at point blank with a shotgun v.s a target wearing body armor, he wont get pushed back any harder than the man with the shotgun would by its recoil.
And one last foot note on the North Hollywood shoot out: Both targets were high off their mind on phenobarbrital (A sedative, which is why they moved so slow, not really the bodyarmor), and they were actually shot several times under their armor that they didnt even notice.
A .308 rifle round will go through body armor like a knife through butter, as well as trees or any matter of interveining cover, as showen in the North Hollywood incident when Matasamarenu (One of the suspects) opened up with a converted HK91.
As for feeling a pistol round? Remember that people dont get knocked down by bullets much, because the force exerted is matched by recoil (Just in a smaller area), so even at point blank with a shotgun v.s a target wearing body armor, he wont get pushed back any harder than the man with the shotgun would by its recoil.
And one last foot note on the North Hollywood shoot out: Both targets were high off their mind on phenobarbrital (A sedative, which is why they moved so slow, not really the bodyarmor), and they were actually shot several times under their armor that they didnt even notice.
First of all, I don't recall saying anything about plain Kevlar.plain Kevlar only goes up to Lvl IIIA, which is suppopsed to be good for anything up to 9mm or so
Second, IIIA is the top of the line in CONCEALABLE body armor and protects against .44 Magnum, lead semi-wadcutter bullets with gas checks, 240gr @ 1400fps or less, and against 9mm FMJ 124gr @ 1400fps (9mm ammo for dedicated use in a subgun/carbine). That's pretty much any pistol round.
To stop standard pressure 9mm you only need to go to Type II (one level down from IIIA).
Threat level III is good against most non-AP rifle rounds including .308. It's a semi-rigid construction (not plain Kevlar).
Threat level IV is good against up to .30-06 (or similar) AP rounds. It's typically of a ceramic type construction and breaks down when shot so it's not good for multiple rounds.