I've found in my M700 ADL, .223 REM, VARGET and the 60grn. Nosler Ballistic Tip/Varmint bullet works very well at 200yds. You may want to try that combo down the trail. I use CCI 400 s.r. primers. The rifle has a 1:12 R.O.T., and the standard 24" barrel. I've also found the Hornady 60grn. V-MAX bullet, along with VARGET, works nearly as well as the Noslers for me. My best groups, though, are with the Noslers at 200yds.
Another question on load development
- Thread starter Joe-ker
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ShootistPRS
New member
If the bullet is pitching and yawing at 3 degrees off axis as it leaves the barrel but traveling on the same ballistic path the point of the bullet is approximately .052" from the bullet centerline.
This does not equate to a 1.5 inch group that gets better at 300 yards. Do the math!
This does not equate to a 1.5 inch group that gets better at 300 yards. Do the math!
Thanks Bedlamite for the video
in the comments section I saw where Brian Litz used the term epicyclic - I guess that will be my new word for the day
the more I learn about this stuff the more ignorant I feel
I was up at the range this morning talking about this thread, one of the better shooters was there and he said that Friday with his .308 match gun and said that just last Friday he had experienced this effect with his rifle @100 and 300 when doing some load testing. I don't recall him mentioning the weight/brand bullet but as I recall he favors heavier longer bullets
in the comments section I saw where Brian Litz used the term epicyclic - I guess that will be my new word for the day
the more I learn about this stuff the more ignorant I feel
I was up at the range this morning talking about this thread, one of the better shooters was there and he said that Friday with his .308 match gun and said that just last Friday he had experienced this effect with his rifle @100 and 300 when doing some load testing. I don't recall him mentioning the weight/brand bullet but as I recall he favors heavier longer bullets
reinert, thanks for the info. I'd never really planned to go as large as 60g- I just figured the slower twist wouldn't stabilize that well. Always kinda figured it was more for 1in9 or the like. I may just as well pick up a box and try- that's what's its about anyways.
Is VARGET less bulky than others? I've only done 748 and 4320. I almost picked up some VARGET last time but H335 was cheaper. I've done a few compressed loads but most are mid range and with 55's there isn't much room left. I would think a 60g would probably be compressed much of the time?
Is VARGET less bulky than others? I've only done 748 and 4320. I almost picked up some VARGET last time but H335 was cheaper. I've done a few compressed loads but most are mid range and with 55's there isn't much room left. I would think a 60g would probably be compressed much of the time?
I think this comes down to bullet selection. If you had a decent 100 yd group with vld heavy boat tails and a great load with light fb bullets, you probably thought the fb load is better.
.....and actually light for caliber/twist loads will be better at 100, 200 & 300 yds. They lose too much velocity to be stable at 1000 yds.
...but those next best loads with heavy vld bt will be way more stable at 1000 yds.
Some people say heavy bullets spiral, yaw and pitch, but I have a hard Tim believing it. Good engineer project though!
.....and actually light for caliber/twist loads will be better at 100, 200 & 300 yds. They lose too much velocity to be stable at 1000 yds.
...but those next best loads with heavy vld bt will be way more stable at 1000 yds.
Some people say heavy bullets spiral, yaw and pitch, but I have a hard Tim believing it. Good engineer project though!
I think Varget will be a good choice . I use IMR 4320 some times and it does fill the case more . I've never used 748 but do use H-335 a lot . H-335 is a good powder but not as good as the stick powders . FWIW I have loads using IMR 4064 and 69gr smk as well as IMR 4895 and 77gr smk . The 69's are compressed and the 77"s are even more compressed . I have to use a 6" drop tube when loading the 77's or sometimes they don't seat all the way .
A couple other powders I've found to work well as far as fitting in the case and accurate is IMR-8208xbr and AR-comp . Both are short cut stick powders and are VERY temperature stable .
A couple other powders I've found to work well as far as fitting in the case and accurate is IMR-8208xbr and AR-comp . Both are short cut stick powders and are VERY temperature stable .
I use the 60 grn. bullets in my M700 because it's the minimum a person can use for deer and antelope hunting legally in Wyoming. If I do decide to use my .223 for a deer, I'll use the 60 grn. Hornady s.p. bullets. They shoot with decent accuracy @ 200yds., but not near as good as the Ball Tip Noslers nor the Hornady V-MAX pills. It's just fun to try the different offerings of bullets and still stay in that 60 grn. realm. I don't think I'd try a shot on a deer with the .223 much farther than 150 yds.
VARGET is an extruded propellant, smaller in the little cylinders than say, IMR 4350, and has a light tan color. Kind of looks like mini D-Con pellets. It's said that it performs well in different temps, high and low, and I really haven't read any bad comments about it. It works well for me in the .223, and I'll stick with it as my go-to powder for that rifle, for now. I also use VARGET in both of my Marlin 336, 30-30s, and I've got a good accurate load recipe for those two rifles.
I've also used and still have a good supply on hand of H335 and W748. Both those powders work good in my .223, also. I'm just likin' the VARGET best right now.
Try a box of 60 grainers sometime. You may be surprised at the accuracy. To add to the list one more time, I use the 60 grn. Hornady Hollow Points too, and they're right up there with the Noslers and V-MAX bullets accuracy-wise. As far as accuracy goes, I have one 200 yd. target with a 5-shot group that measures center to center of the two widest shots right @ 1 inch (saved that one!). I can't do that all the time, but the rifle is capable, certain sure. Good luck on your reloads.
VARGET is an extruded propellant, smaller in the little cylinders than say, IMR 4350, and has a light tan color. Kind of looks like mini D-Con pellets. It's said that it performs well in different temps, high and low, and I really haven't read any bad comments about it. It works well for me in the .223, and I'll stick with it as my go-to powder for that rifle, for now. I also use VARGET in both of my Marlin 336, 30-30s, and I've got a good accurate load recipe for those two rifles.
I've also used and still have a good supply on hand of H335 and W748. Both those powders work good in my .223, also. I'm just likin' the VARGET best right now.
Try a box of 60 grainers sometime. You may be surprised at the accuracy. To add to the list one more time, I use the 60 grn. Hornady Hollow Points too, and they're right up there with the Noslers and V-MAX bullets accuracy-wise. As far as accuracy goes, I have one 200 yd. target with a 5-shot group that measures center to center of the two widest shots right @ 1 inch (saved that one!). I can't do that all the time, but the rifle is capable, certain sure. Good luck on your reloads.
Jker,
I'd also like to add this. I'm pretty much exclusively shooting my .223 at 200 yards when I'm playing with it at the range; either bench resting it, or over my day pack. As I did buy the rifle for use (besides fun) as a hunting tool, I'll take a shot or two off of my day pack at 50 and 100 yards, just because. It's totally hunting accurate at those ranges; very.
I used Lapua, Hornady, Remington and Winchester brass when I came up with the load I settled on for a hunting round, which is using 25 grains of VARGET, and the Hornady 60 grn. S.P. (again, my deer round, if I decide to use it on a critter).
Hornady's manual #10 shows this powder charge as 1/10th grain over max, but Hodgdon's reloading site shows 25 grains of VARGET as the starting load on their charts for the 60 grain V-MAX bullet that I mentioned as one of the bullets I load for. This load pretty much fills the case just barely shy of the case neck where it meets the shoulder (as I remember here). I don't believe the bullet compresses the load, but It's probably meeting powder at the bullet's base, or awful close. I've got more than 5 loadings on some of the cases I've used, and none show any signs of an issue.
I've also used a number of different cases of different brands I've found at my local range (lots of LC and PMC for the most part) just to make comparisons on brass, and how the rifle would perform in its use. Seems the brand of brass hasn't made much of a performance difference when full-length resized in my rifle (new, fired or range brass). Extraction on a fired case is as smooth as can be, and I'm quite happy with the performance of my loads, and the rifle. I've got near 700 rounds through this rifle since I got it a year ago last August. More than half of those shots were with the VARGET charge I've mentioned here. Hope this info is also helpful.
I'd also like to add this. I'm pretty much exclusively shooting my .223 at 200 yards when I'm playing with it at the range; either bench resting it, or over my day pack. As I did buy the rifle for use (besides fun) as a hunting tool, I'll take a shot or two off of my day pack at 50 and 100 yards, just because. It's totally hunting accurate at those ranges; very.
I used Lapua, Hornady, Remington and Winchester brass when I came up with the load I settled on for a hunting round, which is using 25 grains of VARGET, and the Hornady 60 grn. S.P. (again, my deer round, if I decide to use it on a critter).
Hornady's manual #10 shows this powder charge as 1/10th grain over max, but Hodgdon's reloading site shows 25 grains of VARGET as the starting load on their charts for the 60 grain V-MAX bullet that I mentioned as one of the bullets I load for. This load pretty much fills the case just barely shy of the case neck where it meets the shoulder (as I remember here). I don't believe the bullet compresses the load, but It's probably meeting powder at the bullet's base, or awful close. I've got more than 5 loadings on some of the cases I've used, and none show any signs of an issue.
I've also used a number of different cases of different brands I've found at my local range (lots of LC and PMC for the most part) just to make comparisons on brass, and how the rifle would perform in its use. Seems the brand of brass hasn't made much of a performance difference when full-length resized in my rifle (new, fired or range brass). Extraction on a fired case is as smooth as can be, and I'm quite happy with the performance of my loads, and the rifle. I've got near 700 rounds through this rifle since I got it a year ago last August. More than half of those shots were with the VARGET charge I've mentioned here. Hope this info is also helpful.
Joe-ker
The Remington Varmint in 223 has a 26" 1 in 12 twist would be a very accurate 300 yard rifle , good to 3 to 600 but 6 to 1000 could be fun but not accurate . The 1 in 12 twist with a 26" barrel is perfect for the lighter bullets , good barrel life an very accurate with low recoil , very enjoyable to shoot . For distance I would get a 6.5 Creedmoore . I shoot 308 bench rest only , would I like to shoot 300 , sure but 200 is hard enough for dime size groups , its never gets boring .
The Remington Varmint in 223 has a 26" 1 in 12 twist would be a very accurate 300 yard rifle , good to 3 to 600 but 6 to 1000 could be fun but not accurate . The 1 in 12 twist with a 26" barrel is perfect for the lighter bullets , good barrel life an very accurate with low recoil , very enjoyable to shoot . For distance I would get a 6.5 Creedmoore . I shoot 308 bench rest only , would I like to shoot 300 , sure but 200 is hard enough for dime size groups , its never gets boring .
Stats Shooter
New member
Absolutly! plus once I eliminate the "flinches" and "fliers", I have shot a 0.25" 10..err 6...errr...maybe 4 shot out of 10 shot group!
Thanks again for the replies, I'm definitely taking note.
You guys are shooting some nice groups. I definitely have room for improvement.
I'm curious what you guys are using for scopes, namely magnification power?
A large part of the reason I haven't ventured beyond 100 yards is that I'm only running a 3x9. I'm thinking of 4x12.
You guys are shooting some nice groups. I definitely have room for improvement.
I'm curious what you guys are using for scopes, namely magnification power?
A large part of the reason I haven't ventured beyond 100 yards is that I'm only running a 3x9. I'm thinking of 4x12.
Joe-ker
I started with a Nikon 4.5 x 14 x 40 changed to a Bushnell Elite 4200 6 x 24 x 40 Its not a high end scope , I only shoot 200 yards with the extra power I see the target much better . The 40 objective allows me to keep the scope mounted as low as possible . The base & mount are Ken Farrell , pricy but rock solid . 24 to 36 power I would recommend . Make sure you have enough adjustment on your windage & elevation for long distance shooting . Mount your scope level , a canted scope will drive you mad .
I started with a Nikon 4.5 x 14 x 40 changed to a Bushnell Elite 4200 6 x 24 x 40 Its not a high end scope , I only shoot 200 yards with the extra power I see the target much better . The 40 objective allows me to keep the scope mounted as low as possible . The base & mount are Ken Farrell , pricy but rock solid . 24 to 36 power I would recommend . Make sure you have enough adjustment on your windage & elevation for long distance shooting . Mount your scope level , a canted scope will drive you mad .
I use everything from red dot to 18x . Hunting rifles are 2-7 or 3-9 . Target rifles are 4-14 to 6-18 . I just recently put a 1-6x24 on a 18" AR build and I'm still getting used to it .
It really depends on the purpose of the firearm . If long range target shooting . The more magnification you can have while still having a clear picture is best . I find how ever making 2 moa hits out to 300yds needs no more magnification then 7x and is why that's what I use on hunting rifles which also gives me a larger field of view .
It really depends on the purpose of the firearm . If long range target shooting . The more magnification you can have while still having a clear picture is best . I find how ever making 2 moa hits out to 300yds needs no more magnification then 7x and is why that's what I use on hunting rifles which also gives me a larger field of view .
Stats Shooter
New member
I use a Night force NXS 8x32 for 1k Yards on my comp rifle. I use a Night force NXS on my 600 yard F-TR rifle.
I use a leupold Mk 4 on my varmint AR 5.5x20
I use a leupold Mk AR Mod 6x18x44 on my AR-10 LR
On my short range AR 10 I run a 1x6
On my battle rifle i just got an Aimpoint compM4s with Aimpoint Magnifier
On another AR I have an ACOG
I have a couple Swarovski Z3's 4x12x50's a model 70 .270 and model 70 .300wm
I have a Leupold Target fixed 12 Power on my target 22
And some other scopes I am forgetting
I use a leupold Mk 4 on my varmint AR 5.5x20
I use a leupold Mk AR Mod 6x18x44 on my AR-10 LR
On my short range AR 10 I run a 1x6
On my battle rifle i just got an Aimpoint compM4s with Aimpoint Magnifier
On another AR I have an ACOG
I have a couple Swarovski Z3's 4x12x50's a model 70 .270 and model 70 .300wm
I have a Leupold Target fixed 12 Power on my target 22
And some other scopes I am forgetting