I've been loading .223 for a while now and been strictly shooting 100yds thus far. Figured when I found what I liked there I'd move down range. I've been thinking- the loads I've discounted as "unfavorable" at 100, might some be better at 200? It seems it would save some time in the long run if I loaded more and tested at multiple distances. Just curious how others develop.
Another question on load development
- Thread starter Joe-ker
- Start date
Don Fischer
New member
Near as I can tell, your 4" shooting load just could be minute of angle at 1000 yds!
An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force. - Newtons first law
If a bullet is diverging from the point of aim at 100 the farther away it is from the muzzle the more it will diverge unless acted upon by a external force such as wind, gravity or some other force to bring it back to the point of aim
Now you also have to consider sub sonic transitions so for example if you had 2 loads. Load A is more accurate but goes sub sonic as it reaches 800 yards. Load B may shoot 1/4 MOA larger groups at 100 but it will stay supersonic beyond 1000. In that case I would shoot load A out to 500 or so yards and load B at 800 and above.
Another consideration is the ballistic coefficient of the bullets. In one of my rifles a 120 grain works great out to 200 or 300 but I prefer the 140 grainers for distances beyond because of the BC
There are a lot of things to consider but if that load is shooting 2 inches at 100 it sure as heck ain't going to shoot 1 inch at 200 but a load that is shooting 1/2 MOA at 100 usually does not fall apart until it goes subsonic or the wind starts pushing it
If a bullet is diverging from the point of aim at 100 the farther away it is from the muzzle the more it will diverge unless acted upon by a external force such as wind, gravity or some other force to bring it back to the point of aim
Now you also have to consider sub sonic transitions so for example if you had 2 loads. Load A is more accurate but goes sub sonic as it reaches 800 yards. Load B may shoot 1/4 MOA larger groups at 100 but it will stay supersonic beyond 1000. In that case I would shoot load A out to 500 or so yards and load B at 800 and above.
Another consideration is the ballistic coefficient of the bullets. In one of my rifles a 120 grain works great out to 200 or 300 but I prefer the 140 grainers for distances beyond because of the BC
There are a lot of things to consider but if that load is shooting 2 inches at 100 it sure as heck ain't going to shoot 1 inch at 200 but a load that is shooting 1/2 MOA at 100 usually does not fall apart until it goes subsonic or the wind starts pushing it
Just thought of something one of the old school benchresters told me a few years back.
He said that bullets will spiral as they move forward and that was the reason that my 140 gr bullets would not group as tight as the 120's at 100 but gave better groups farther out. His theory was the bullet "settled" down after 200 and that was why the heavier bullet grouped better at long range.
Just something to consider
He said that bullets will spiral as they move forward and that was the reason that my 140 gr bullets would not group as tight as the 120's at 100 but gave better groups farther out. His theory was the bullet "settled" down after 200 and that was why the heavier bullet grouped better at long range.
Just something to consider
The other day I was testing some established loads in a new AR build . They were not doing well , about 1.5 moa at 100yds . I went ahead and guest what my clicks would be for 300yds and shot a 5 shot group at 300yds . That same load that shot 1.5moa at 100 shot 1/3 moa at 300yds . Not sure what happened but I actually had a 
moment when I got to the 300yd target and saw that group .
I've not shot that load again in the rifle but will some day soon . I don't think I get the same results but that kinda freaked me out at first because I did not think a bad group at 100yds could some how shoot well at 300yds .
I'm sure it was a little of this and a little of that . I likely did not shoot the 100yd groups as well as I could have and the stars aligned just right for that one 300yd group . Although I have shot a .85 moa 10 shot group with that load before ( including that high left flyer ).
moment when I got to the 300yd target and saw that group . I've not shot that load again in the rifle but will some day soon . I don't think I get the same results but that kinda freaked me out at first because I did not think a bad group at 100yds could some how shoot well at 300yds .
I'm sure it was a little of this and a little of that . I likely did not shoot the 100yd groups as well as I could have and the stars aligned just right for that one 300yd group . Although I have shot a .85 moa 10 shot group with that load before ( including that high left flyer ).
Joe-ker
I'm also shooting a Rem.700 in 308 cal. I ordered a tool from MidwayUSA that removes the firing pin assembly, makes it very easy to find your case headspace & OAL to ogive by feel . What powder & bullet are you using , what twist does your barrel have . Are you going to use the rifle for hunting or bench rest ?
I'm also shooting a Rem.700 in 308 cal. I ordered a tool from MidwayUSA that removes the firing pin assembly, makes it very easy to find your case headspace & OAL to ogive by feel . What powder & bullet are you using , what twist does your barrel have . Are you going to use the rifle for hunting or bench rest ?
10 shot groups like that are not luck. 3 shots can be luck, 5 shot maybe but 10 or more shots in a group like that is a combination of gun and shooter. Just my opinion
but back to topic that could possibly be a example of the spiraling effect the guy was telling me about. Also started me thinking about boat tails which as I understand only come into play at 300 and above
but back to topic that could possibly be a example of the spiraling effect the guy was telling me about. Also started me thinking about boat tails which as I understand only come into play at 300 and above
cw-- 1 in 12 twist so I've been sticking with 50-55 grains. 748 but mostly IMR 4320. Picked up some H335 to try next go around. Strictly benchrest at this point. I've done the trick with a case the bullet slides in without neck tension to find the lands but am staying .050 thus far
Joe-ker
I tried that with the bushing dies ,sized the neck with very little tension it self seat the bullet but when the bullet would hit the lands it would cause the bullet to back out . Using the bolt housing without the firing pin assembly , you can first get your case headspace by just feeling how the bolt closes then adjust the die lower each time until its perfect , same with OAL by feel & land marks on the bullet.
Being that your using your 700 for bench rest like myself , I removed the plunger spring , replaced it with a spring from a disposable lighter. I load one at a time ,so the case just stays on the follower ,saving my brass from dings. Your groups will tighten upwith a light trigger, all rifles the triggers are in pounds . Bench rest rifles are in ounces , makes a big difference , I installed a Jewell set at 10 ounces , feels like 3 pounds when you get use to it.
1-12 twist is good for 50 to 62 grain bullets , Sierra MatchKings will do the job , just remember to check your ogive settings after shooting that lot , same bullet but every box will change in ogive setting. If your looking for that one hole group stick to 1 & 200 yard range. Case prep is important to accuracy , I trim my brass every firing , tried neck sizing but when you F/L size to .001 case headspace every case is exact without overworking the brass.
1/12 twist is easier on the barrel , they are speeding up the twists to use heaver bullets for longer shooting distances but for a 223 200 yards is possible for that dime size group. How do you prep your brass , how many round do you shoot per range trip with that rifle.
What model 700 ? Mine started out as a Rem 700 LTR 20" barrel , after 4000+ down the tube I had the barrel changed . That's another thing , keep a log on your loads and also round count for barrel life. Benchrest shooting , no oil in the barrel . If your not going to shoot for long periods of time then oil to prevent rust . Keep the rifle in good shape clean & grease the back end of the bolt locking lugs & camming areas.
I tried that with the bushing dies ,sized the neck with very little tension it self seat the bullet but when the bullet would hit the lands it would cause the bullet to back out . Using the bolt housing without the firing pin assembly , you can first get your case headspace by just feeling how the bolt closes then adjust the die lower each time until its perfect , same with OAL by feel & land marks on the bullet.
Being that your using your 700 for bench rest like myself , I removed the plunger spring , replaced it with a spring from a disposable lighter. I load one at a time ,so the case just stays on the follower ,saving my brass from dings. Your groups will tighten upwith a light trigger, all rifles the triggers are in pounds . Bench rest rifles are in ounces , makes a big difference , I installed a Jewell set at 10 ounces , feels like 3 pounds when you get use to it.
1-12 twist is good for 50 to 62 grain bullets , Sierra MatchKings will do the job , just remember to check your ogive settings after shooting that lot , same bullet but every box will change in ogive setting. If your looking for that one hole group stick to 1 & 200 yard range. Case prep is important to accuracy , I trim my brass every firing , tried neck sizing but when you F/L size to .001 case headspace every case is exact without overworking the brass.
1/12 twist is easier on the barrel , they are speeding up the twists to use heaver bullets for longer shooting distances but for a 223 200 yards is possible for that dime size group. How do you prep your brass , how many round do you shoot per range trip with that rifle.
What model 700 ? Mine started out as a Rem 700 LTR 20" barrel , after 4000+ down the tube I had the barrel changed . That's another thing , keep a log on your loads and also round count for barrel life. Benchrest shooting , no oil in the barrel . If your not going to shoot for long periods of time then oil to prevent rust . Keep the rifle in good shape clean & grease the back end of the bolt locking lugs & camming areas.
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One of the terms that is used when assessing anything, is background noise.
As Metal God noted, sometimes you cross over a so so load and it all plugs into the same spot. Try to repeat that though and it goes back to is norm.
What I can say is that I shoot 100 yards as that is what I have range wise and cost effective wise (there is a 300 meter range up north 20 miles, but would need a 2nd card)
But I had a good load going that had been consistent and I wanted to see how I did.
It was a 7/16 to 3/8 MOA (I can stretch the 100 yards to 110 or 115 by going past the 100 yard line and up the bank a bit ergo, use of MOA)
I got the one gun and load on at 300 and shot groups. Yep, around 7/16 MOA.
Shot 5 groups, 3 were solid, the there two 4 shots were and a flyer.
As conditions were not great, 75 degrees in AK is like 85-95 states side due to sun angle and it was right into the sun latter in the day, lots of heat mirage, I thought that was pretty good for me. No wind so I was not fighting that.
I don't buy the settle out aspect. If something is wobbly to start with it only gets worse as the speed changes. I haven't seen anything that says that happens and they are now using radar to watch the bullets.
Curious if anyone that is in the super tech end (Unclenick) has supporting data otherwise.
As Metal God noted, sometimes you cross over a so so load and it all plugs into the same spot. Try to repeat that though and it goes back to is norm.
What I can say is that I shoot 100 yards as that is what I have range wise and cost effective wise (there is a 300 meter range up north 20 miles, but would need a 2nd card)
But I had a good load going that had been consistent and I wanted to see how I did.
It was a 7/16 to 3/8 MOA (I can stretch the 100 yards to 110 or 115 by going past the 100 yard line and up the bank a bit ergo, use of MOA)
I got the one gun and load on at 300 and shot groups. Yep, around 7/16 MOA.
Shot 5 groups, 3 were solid, the there two 4 shots were and a flyer.
As conditions were not great, 75 degrees in AK is like 85-95 states side due to sun angle and it was right into the sun latter in the day, lots of heat mirage, I thought that was pretty good for me. No wind so I was not fighting that.
I don't buy the settle out aspect. If something is wobbly to start with it only gets worse as the speed changes. I haven't seen anything that says that happens and they are now using radar to watch the bullets.
Curious if anyone that is in the super tech end (Unclenick) has supporting data otherwise.
RC20
I wish I had a range 20 miles away , l travel 45 miles to get to the closest range and the maximum distance to shoot is 200 yards . In my neck of the woods they would love to close every range . Its a shame because its a great sport with great people . I could talk about shooting & reloading all day. Tomorrow's my day for shooting .
I wish I had a range 20 miles away , l travel 45 miles to get to the closest range and the maximum distance to shoot is 200 yards . In my neck of the woods they would love to close every range . Its a shame because its a great sport with great people . I could talk about shooting & reloading all day. Tomorrow's my day for shooting .
Well thanks to the OP Brian Litz sold another book this morning For any that want to know why some bullets shoot better at long range than others buy or download Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting by Brian Litz or you can do the readers digest condensed version found here if you are only mildly curious
https://loadoutroom.com/thearmsguide/long-range-shooting-external-ballistics-dynamic-stability/
Then learn all about dynamic stability, gyroscopic precession and nutation.
The article also explains why a bullet can settle down at longer ranges.
You guys make me feel lucky as far as ranges go. I thought a 25 mile ride was bad. Also I thought the entire state of Alaska was just on big shooting range
For any that want to know why some bullets shoot better at long range than others buy or download Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting by Brian Litz or you can do the readers digest condensed version found here if you are only mildly curioushttps://loadoutroom.com/thearmsguide/long-range-shooting-external-ballistics-dynamic-stability/
Then learn all about dynamic stability, gyroscopic precession and nutation.
The article also explains why a bullet can settle down at longer ranges.
You guys make me feel lucky as far as ranges go. I thought a 25 mile ride was bad. Also I thought the entire state of Alaska was just on big shooting range
cw308 Mine is a varmint, laminated stock.
Mine's not included in the recall but I'd still like to update the trigger at some point- was thinking Timiny but I'll give Jewell a look as well.
As for you guys that have to travel to find a range, I feel bad. Living in the country with acres and acres, I am spoiled. I only wish we had some slope sometimes--a nice hill outback would be a nice backstop. Something like Hickok 45 with many different targets at different distances would be awesome.
Mine's not included in the recall but I'd still like to update the trigger at some point- was thinking Timiny but I'll give Jewell a look as well.
As for you guys that have to travel to find a range, I feel bad. Living in the country with acres and acres, I am spoiled. I only wish we had some slope sometimes--a nice hill outback would be a nice backstop. Something like Hickok 45 with many different targets at different distances would be awesome.
Stats Shooter
New member
Just food for thought, but my F-CLASS .300wm load uses a Hornady 225gr ELD-M. It is almost 1.7" long (the bullet).
It shoots approximately 3/4 " at 100 yards and 3/4" at 300 yards. Why? Because it is very long and doesn't settle down until about 250 yards.
It shoots approximately 3/4 " at 100 yards and 3/4" at 300 yards. Why? Because it is very long and doesn't settle down until about 250 yards.
I will try to maintain an open mind, but all the whooppy do language that says one thing can also be used by the film flam artist.
I have been meaning to get Brian Litz book, have to check into Amazon.
I wish you had one close as well. We are lucky, our Governor knows better than to cut our State Range. Shame was it should have been 300 yards but target was not the vogue when they put it in (sight in for hunting was it) and the wetlands behind it are now persona non grata.
We do have a 300 meter range about 45 minutes to the North, I may get a range card.
Try out Mississippi 3/4 thing. So far the results have been in line with my 100 yard shooting. If its 1.2 MOA at 100 its 1/2 MOA at 300 meters.
I have been meaning to get Brian Litz book, have to check into Amazon.
I wish you had one close as well. We are lucky, our Governor knows better than to cut our State Range. Shame was it should have been 300 yards but target was not the vogue when they put it in (sight in for hunting was it) and the wetlands behind it are now persona non grata.
We do have a 300 meter range about 45 minutes to the North, I may get a range card.
Try out Mississippi 3/4 thing. So far the results have been in line with my 100 yard shooting. If its 1.2 MOA at 100 its 1/2 MOA at 300 meters.
Here's a representation of a bullet settling down and 'going to sleep'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pF8W5liSRc
I've seen this happen, mostly on longer boat tail bullets. Some have a tendency to print larger groups than expected at 100 yards, but then the group stays the same diameter for a couple hundred more yards until wind starts to affect it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pF8W5liSRc
I've seen this happen, mostly on longer boat tail bullets. Some have a tendency to print larger groups than expected at 100 yards, but then the group stays the same diameter for a couple hundred more yards until wind starts to affect it.
Bedlamite-that is one goofy video!
In this case, if a picture is worth a thousand words a video is probably worth ten thousand.
I finally 'get' what folk are talking about when they say the bullet 'spirals' down range. The video makes that almost instantly clear.
Sad to say though, with all the miserable stuff on the interwebs today I wouldn't have given the thing much weight if I hadn't seen the 'Provided by Berger Bullets' heading right at the beginning of the video.
Thank you very much for posting this.
In this case, if a picture is worth a thousand words a video is probably worth ten thousand.
I finally 'get' what folk are talking about when they say the bullet 'spirals' down range. The video makes that almost instantly clear.
Sad to say though, with all the miserable stuff on the interwebs today I wouldn't have given the thing much weight if I hadn't seen the 'Provided by Berger Bullets' heading right at the beginning of the video.
Thank you very much for posting this.