Another lead in center fired rifle question (308)

M

Metal god

New member
Hello

I started a lead bullets in 30-30 thread awhile back and showed the lead bullets I had planed to use

WFcTF3.jpg


Yesterday I was looking at the box and thought , hmm flat nose might not be the best for 308 but lets see if these .309 diameter bullet will seat and chamber in a 308 case and chamber . Short answer is yes no problem , chamber in all 4 of my 308 rifles .

This leads me to go look up load data for lead bullets in the 308 cartridge . What I saw roughly mirrored the 30-30 ( not really ) but a lot of the same powders at close to the same velocities-ish .

Most in the 1800 to 2200fps range ,however there were some loads that were in the 2600fps area which I thought was pretty fast since I barely get my 168gr smk that fast out of my 308's

Many questions on all this is

1) are these .309 bullets ok to shoot out of a standard factory 308 rifle ( Savage , Ruger etc

2) regardless of components should I keep these under 2300fps

3) If pushing hard (2400fps+) do these need a gas check

4)I want to use H-335 or IMR-4895 but only see data using the heavier bullets ( Lyman cast bullet manual )

5) Should I even bother using these bullets in a 3o8 bolt gun

6) I have an AR-10 type rifle but most powders seem kind of fast to be used in a gas gun . Does anyone shoot lead out of there gas guns and well below the velocities you generally see in this cartridge . Example I just don't see a load using powder 2400 at 1800fps cycling the bolt or heck IDK maybe being way over gassed with the longer dwell time at 1800fps

As to the bolt gun use , My grandson is about at the firearms teaching age and my Ruger American might be a nice step up from the 22lr he'll likely learn on , wish I had a 223 rem bolt gun which would be a good step up from 22lr

General thoughts ?

MG
 
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I'd keep those in the 1800-2000 fps range. Pushing them any faster and I'd want a gas checked bullet, and you can't just add a gas check, the base of the bullet needs to be designed for the check. I don't load cast in any rifles, but I do load cast in a 454 casull which is rifle pressures

If you WANTED to push them a little faster, you could powder coat them, which would involve something like boiling them to remove the lube, cleaning them really well, then going through the coating process. I wouldn't push them much faster than 24-2600 coated and un checked, but that's a personal thing. I shoot a lot of cast bullets in a 454 casull, and while most my loads are coated and un checked, but the hotter loads I still apply a gas check, even though on the near max loads i haven't noticed any leading, I don't want to push my luck.

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I actuall have 1k of those same bullets with there Hi-tech coating as well . So those would be better to use then lubed lead in this application?
 
They may be better. Regarding gas checks, you can always add a polywad (aka p-wad). NECO sells them. You can make your own with a sharpened case by cutting them from 1/32 to 1/16" LDPE sheet. Just stick them to the bullet base with wax or lube before seating the bullet or just set them in the case mouth first, but don't seat the base below where the neck meets the shoulder so it doesn't fall into the powder.
 
Ok thanks guys looks like these should be gtg . How about load data using IMR 4895 ?? I've read you can load it down so there must be some moderate and safe loads using 165gr lead bullets . On a related note It seems I mostly see either 160gr or 170gr data , regardless of powder used if I don't have the exact weight bullet data which bullet weight data should I use . I've generally went with the heavier bullet data assuming that would be safer ???

Also what do all these lead types mean - cast / 10-1 / #2 alloy / linotype etc . I assume it's generalizing the the lead to tin/alloy mixture and has some relevance to hardness . Is there a chart I can print out that gives a range of all the different leads . any hints on why you load one differently then another would be helpful . I'm not totally blind to what's what but have very little certainty on any of it when it comes to lead . FWIW this question need not be limited to rifle bullets , I load a lot of lead pistol bullets now as well so anything that helps explain lead in general is welcome .

Example of my ignorance here . I have been shooting factory lead ammo in 38/357 and 9mm since the early 80's and never knew there was such a thing as gas checks until a couple years ago . Right now gas checks or the things UN suggest to buy or make I have the least amount of confidence in , I just don't understand how they stay on the bullet or how during that violent ignition they don't get rocked off or pushed sideways sometimes . I'll have to go back and read the lead casting portion of a few manuals which I skipped the first time around thinking I wouldn't be casting any of my own bullets so why bother :o
 
For the most part, the lead alloy will determine its hardness and toughness. Generally, you'll want a harder lead for higher pressures, but you can have lead that's too hard. Basically you want the base of the bullet too deform just enough under the pressures to seal against the bore. Too soft, and it just gets cut away by the flame. Too hard and it won't be able to deform and seal. The #2 is a pretty standard alloy, I believe it's a Lyman formulation. Linotype is very hard lead. There should be a chart out there somewhere comparing the different alloys

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It is H4895 (ADI AR2206H), not IMR 4895 that Hodgdon claims to have tested down to low load levels (I wouldn't be surprised if it was ADI that did the testing). They have claimed it works down to 60% of published maximums, but I would call them to double-check that this hasn't changed. Powders get revised over time.

The late Dr. Lloyd Brownell said his lab had observed pressure excursions as high as 2×SAAMI MAP using IMR powders below 55% loading density, so I am inclined to limit everything to 60% case fill as a dead minimum, and that's after travel vibration. 70% is a more broadly used number for safety (see Hodgdon's Trail Boss load data for rifle, as an example).

Richard Lee did a lot of experimenting with cast bullets in rifles and claimed no base distortion produces best rifle precision. The second edition of his book, Modern Reloading, has a table of hardness versus maximum pressure based on the BHN testing identifying the PSI needed to initiate that distortion. A plot of his numbers shows limiting pressure to 1280 times the BHN number gave him the best results. An actual calculation shows 1400 times the BHN number is where distortion starts, but Lee was allowing a margin for shot-to-shot pressure variation.

Base expansion is important to have in barrels that have constrictions the bullet has to pass through, beyond which you need the bullet to bump back up to maintain the bore seal. Revolvers often have such constrictions where the barrel screws into the frame, so it is common for them to require a softer bullet to prevent gas cutting and the bullet imbalance and leading that results.

You can try both. If you keep your loads below 23,000 psi, you have Lee's condition satisfied with your BHN 18 bullets. If you go above 25,000 psi, you will start to distort the base. See which one does best in your gun.
 
I would also point out that regular cast bullets with the conventional lube are not a good choice for gas operated firearms.

This is because lead, bullet lube and powder residue (burnt or not) can build up and clog the gas system.

Some designs (mostly rifles) allow this to be cleaned, though its a chore and a pain, and may require complete disassembly of the gas system to access the barrel port. There is also one design I know that does NOT allow access to the entire gas system or the barrel port, and cannot be cleaned easily or sometimes, even at all. That is the Desert Eagle, and the maker specifically states do NOT use cast bullets in the gun. And, its not covered by their warranty, if you do.

Actually saw this happen in the 90s. Guy bought a .44 Mag Desert Eagle, and he "knew better" than the people who made it, and shot lead bullets. Don't remember how many, a couple hundred or so, I think, but his semi auto turned into a manually operated repeater.

Our best local smith couldn't fix it, and sent the gun back to Desert Eagle.
Desert Eagle returned the gun with a new barrel assy, and a bill for the new barrel assy (which was nearly half the cost of the gun at the time) and a repeated warning that clogging the gas system by shooting lead bullets was NOT covered under the warranty and the owner was responsible for the cost of repair.

Also what do all these lead types mean - cast / 10-1 / #2 alloy / linotype etc . I assume it's generalizing the the lead to tin/alloy mixture and has some relevance to hardness
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The three elements commonly used for cast bullets are lead, tin, and antimony. Some bullets use all 3 some are just lead & tin. The numbers you mention refer to the percentages of the material in the alloy by weight. And, yes, it has to do with bullet hardness. Get a good bood on cast bullet loading and read the entire thing, not just the data tables!

Cast bullets in .30 caliber rifles are not intended for, and are not suitable for regular full power loads once you get above the .30-30 level. They are intended for light game loads, small game loads, and plinking. Velocities listed in most tables run from 15-1600fps to around 2,000fps.

Powders used are usually NOT the ones for full power jacketed bullet hunting loads. My old (1970) Lyman book has cast bullet loads for the .308 Win in weights ranging from 123gr to 193gr bullets. Powders used are 700x, Red Dot, Unique Green Dot, Herco, and some others that are NOT suitable for full power loads.

do some reading, you'll have more questions. come back and ask.
 
Lyman's cast bullet handbook is a good starting point. You'll find the alloy information for #2 and linotype in there. #2 is 90:5:5, meaning 90% lead, and 5% each tin and antimony which is easy to cast and has a BHN of about 15. Linotype is actually a name that applies to a family of alloys. IIRC, 84% lead, 4% tin, 12% antimony is the hardest combination and has a BHN of 22. The hardness makes it brittle in cold hunting conditions so it can shatter on bone. For that reason, if you need that hardness, you do better to get there by heat treating a softer alloy. You'll find "magnum" lead shot has some arsenic in it. Adding a bit to your lead alloy makes it respond to heat treatment if you are going that route.
 
Recent thinking is that more than 2% tin is not necessary in ternary alloys.
The usual bulk commercial alloy is 92-6-2, antimony increases hardness more and costs less than tin.
Interestingly, that is half the alloying content of Linotype.

BPCR shooters stick to tin.
 
Thanks guys good stuff , FWIW I have both the Lyman 50th and cast bullet manuals .

As for powders I'm trying not to add a new powder and that's why I've been wanting to use IMR 4895 or H-335 . Those two powders are likely to stay in my rotation for many years . I have H-4895 and like it but it's right up there with Varget as far as ever being available locally or online so the plan was to use up what I have and drop it from the inventory. If I have to add a powder it must be a multi use powder 30-30 , 223 , 308 & not be what many think is the greatest powder ever ;-) .

I'm thinking IMR 3031 or 4198 , I'd go with something like 2400 which I use but pressures get pretty high for what appears to be rather weak velocities . Based on that pressure/distortion calculation idea I'm going to want a slower burning powder then 2400 to get into the 1800 to 2000fps I'd like to be in while still staying under the 24,000psi . I just so happen to have some old 3031 ( metal can ) that was given to me a couple months ago . I'll give it the smell test and spread it out on some white paper to see if any rusty dust is present . If it appears gtg I'll try that out first and maybe a few reduced H-4895 loads just to try and have data for .

As 44 suggest I will read through a couple manuals cast bullet sections and see what else I don't know .
 
I'd go with something like 2400 which I use but pressures get pretty high for what appears to be rather weak velocities
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"rather weak" velocities depends on your frame of reference. 2400 is one of the oldest powders still in production, and was originally brought out as a powder for reloading small rifle cartridges. Think .22 Hornet, .25-20, etc. Turns out its a great powder for magnum pistol rounds too.

But, when you get up to case capacities of the .30-30 and larger 2400 is "too fast" to deliver the full velocity that "slower" rifle powders will. This is why 2400 is only used for light ( >2,000fps) loads in cases like the .308Win.

Do not, DO not, DO NOT use too much 2400 in your .308!

About 50 years ago, when I was even dumber about some things than I am today (and yes, it was possible) I was a beginning reloader and the .308 was the reason. I'd loaded and shot a few hundred rounds (one at a time, single stage press), loaded 110,125, 150, 165 and 180gr hunting bullets, all good, so I "Knew what I was doing"....,

So I read some magazine articles and in some books (this was decades before the internet) about lead bullets and "gallery loads" and decided to make some of my own. Got some cast .30 cal slugs (approx 173gr) and used 2400 pistol powder, like the book said. All was well for a bit, but then, my lack of experience and lack of focus & concentration on my loading practices created a near disaster.

I was about 15, had the basic tools for reloading, but not all the nice to have extras (money was tight) so I made do with what I had. I didn't have a powder trickler. Didnlt need one, really, just put some powder in a fired case and use that to dribble into the scale pan. Worked fine.

UNTIL...(ominous music..) a series of errors compounded one on the other. My FIRST screw up was using a sized, primed case as my "trickler" (and not realizing that). My SECOND screw up was putting that case in the loading block (about half full of 2400 powder), and my THIRD screwup was not realizing I had done 1 & 2 and seating a bullet in that "trickler" case, creating a "bomb" with at least double and likely more the charge of 2400 I intended to use.

Yes, I shot it, totally unaware of what I had done, until that round went off. Remington bolt action. Gas hit me in the face , froze the bolt shut.

When the gunsmith finally got it open, we found extractor & pin broken, bolt stop pin broken, safety pin broken. Case head expanded so that the fired primer fell out, and there were cracks in the web at the bottom of the primer pocket. There was a "belt" of brass swaged on the case body just ahead of the extractor groove. According to the books based on what happened to the case, pressure was between 90-110,000 psi. :eek::eek::eek:

My rifle held together, and after repair was just fine. I still have it. I still have that case, too, in a baggie hanging from a shelf over the loading bench, a visible reminder of what NOT TO DO!!!!

ANYWAY, point here is 2400 is a fine powder for some things, but its easy to fit WAAAY too much of it in a .308 case and that can blow up your gun! SO, I'd recommend not doing that, from personal experience! :rolleyes::D
 
44 AMP said:
"rather weak" velocities depends on your frame of reference. 2400 is one of the oldest powders still in production, and was originally brought out as a powder for reloading small rifle cartridges. Think .22 Hornet, .25-20, etc. Turns out its a great powder for magnum pistol rounds too.



But, when you get up to case capacities of the .30-30 and larger 2400 is "too fast" to deliver the full velocity that "slower" rifle powders will. This is why 2400 is only used for light ( >2,000fps) loads in cases like the .308Win.



Do not, DO not, DO NOT use too much 2400 in your .308!



About 50 years ago, when I was even dumber about some things than I am today (and yes, it was possible) I was a beginning reloader and the .308 was the reason. I'd loaded and shot a few hundred rounds (one at a time, single stage press), loaded 110,125, 150, 165 and 180gr hunting bullets, all good, so I "Knew what I was doing"....,



So I read some magazine articles and in some books (this was decades before the internet) about lead bullets and "gallery loads" and decided to make some of my own. Got some cast .30 cal slugs (approx 173gr) and used 2400 pistol powder, like the book said. All was well for a bit, but then, my lack of experience and lack of focus & concentration on my loading practices created a near disaster.



I was about 15, had the basic tools for reloading, but not all the nice to have extras (money was tight) so I made do with what I had. I didn't have a powder trickler. Didnlt need one, really, just put some powder in a fired case and use that to dribble into the scale pan. Worked fine.



UNTIL...(ominous music..) a series of errors compounded one on the other. My FIRST screw up was using a sized, primed case as my "trickler" (and not realizing that). My SECOND screw up was putting that case in the loading block (about half full of 2400 powder), and my THIRD screwup was not realizing I had done 1 & 2 and seating a bullet in that "trickler" case, creating a "bomb" with at least double and likely more the charge of 2400 I intended to use.



Yes, I shot it, totally unaware of what I had done, until that round went off. Remington bolt action. Gas hit me in the face , froze the bolt shut.



When the gunsmith finally got it open, we found extractor & pin broken, bolt stop pin broken, safety pin broken. Case head expanded so that the fired primer fell out, and there were cracks in the web at the bottom of the primer pocket. There was a "belt" of brass swaged on the case body just ahead of the extractor groove. According to the books based on what happened to the case, pressure was between 90-110,000 psi. :eek::eek::eek:



My rifle held together, and after repair was just fine. I still have it. I still have that case, too, in a baggie hanging from a shelf over the loading bench, a visible reminder of what NOT TO DO!!!!



ANYWAY, point here is 2400 is a fine powder for some things, but its easy to fit WAAAY too much of it in a .308 case and that can blow up your gun! SO, I'd recommend not doing that, from personal experience! :rolleyes::D
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Stories like that are why I prefer my loads to be near 100% case fill as I can, and I absolutely detest the most common pistol plinking powder because it uses such a small charge that in almost every case it's extremely difficult to visually discern a double charge, and a triple charge will fit in almost every case it's used in.

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I LIKE "rather weak" loads.
I don't hunt and I am pretty well out of F class.
A cast bullet at .32-40 velocity or a jacketed bullet like the old 300 meter round is plenty for me.

If you worry about double charging, get some Red Dot. C.E. Harris says of his brainchild:
"The Load" (13 gr Red Dot) fills 50% or more of a .308 Win or .30-'06 case."
 
"rather weak" velocities depends on your frame of reference.
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I gave very specific reasons/references , 1st was I don't want to use a powder that I would only use in one cartridge with one bullet and then there was this .

I'd go with something like 2400 which I use EDIT maybe should have added in other cartridges but pressures get pretty high for what appears to be rather weak velocities . Based on that pressure/distortion calculation idea I'm going to want a slower burning powder then 2400 to get into the 1800 to 2000fps I'd like to be in while still staying under the 24,000psi
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I believe that is saying pretty much what you are saying just with lesser words ;)


But, when you get up to case capacities of the .30-30 and larger 2400 is "too fast" to deliver the full velocity that "slower" rifle powders will. This is why 2400 is only used for light ( >2,000fps) loads in cases like the .308Win.
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And I can't get to 2000fps with 2400 and stay below the 24k-psi threshold to avoid bullet base distortion . I don't have the books in front of me but many if not most of the powders regardless of burn rate peak out way over 23k psi .

Yes case capacity/fill is something to keep an eye on but that must relate to burn rate as well in some way . No way Unique is going to fill a 308 case to 70% and yet they seem to indicate it's a powder you can use so there must be more to the case capacity/fill part then simply capacity/fill it self ? Heck I've seen Titegroup data for 308 and there's ZERO chance that will fill a 308 case even 33% and stay inside safe pressure levels

I will admit shooting lead out of a rifle sure got much more complex after reading this thread then I ever thought it might .
 
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Just got to thinking about the case fill % and realized that was brought up when talking about reducing a load below minimum using H-4895 . Point being fill rate may have just as much or more to do with reduced loads then using published loads of any powder regardless of burn rate .

Things that make you go hmmm :)

MG
 
In the old days, "gallery" loads using pistol powders were understood that they were NOT deer hunting ammo, or combat ammo or even rapid fire ammo, unless some extra steps were taken, such as using a filler in the case to keep the tiny charge of pistol powder back against the primer.

KaPok fibers, squares of tissue paper were used, even filling the void space with cream of wheat was used. (it does work).

Most of us, however, didn't bother with that, we simply knew to point the rifle up (vertical) then lower it slowly down to shooting position, which also puts the small pistol powder charge back against the primer where it needs to be.

Underloading cases with regular rifle powder can be a problem. When using those powders, you really want and need a case mostly full, not mostly empty space.

Seriously underloading a slow powder can result in squibs and has resulted in detonations. Rare, but it has happened. Because of that, we pay close attention to how much of what powder we use.

If the maker says "don't go below...X " then don't go below it. If you can't get what you want without doing that, you need to seek an alternate solution.
 
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