Another Knife vs Gun: Look at how Close the Assailant was allowed to Get...

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In this video (sorry, it's age restricted) you can easily see the bullet strike the pavement at 1:05.
Your eyes must be better than mine. I've watched Donut Operator's video previously. Just watched it again and, even slowed down to 25% speed, I don't see a bullet hitting the pavement.

I also don't see any evidence that she hit the perp -- I have no idea where those first few rounds went.
 
Your eyes must be better than mine. I've watched Donut Operator's video previously. Just watched it again and, even slowed down to 25% speed, I don't see a bullet hitting the pavement.

I also don't see any evidence that she hit the perp -- I have no idea where those first few rounds went.

Click Here
Watch where the arrow is pointing
Also shots can be seen striking him as well as see him reacting
Including the shot that struck his arm causing him to drop one of the knives
 
Here's a sequence of captures showing the strike.

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And the rest of the sequence.

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All of those captures happen within the 1:05 second in Donut's video.
 

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By strike, we mean the bullet striking the pavement right?

I had thought he had struck her dominant hand with the shank of the screwdriver after which the officer grunted, then performed the malfunction drill. But looking at the video again, I think he just swatted her dominant hand down with his left wrist and never really hit her with the screwdriver.
 
Bad tactics in my opinion.
She was responding to a knife attack, so she knew the suspect was armed with at least one knife.
She found her suspect.
He stopped.
She stopped.
She got out of her cruiser.
He got out of his car with a weapon in his hand.
She tells him to drop the weapon.
And the rest is history.

Not to be a Monday morning QB, but a better tactic would have been this:
He stops.
She stops.
She gets out of her cruiser.
He gets out of his car with a weapon in his hand.
She quickly gets back in her cruiser and hits the gas and runs over the idiot.

Sometimes, a firearm is not the best tool for the job.
 
By strike, we mean the bullet striking the pavement right?

That is what I was referring to.

Her response to him left me with a question..

It looks like he angled to the passenger side of her cruiser, using it as cover while he closed the distance and then crossed across it to lunge at her.

I wondered why she didn't retreat away from the cruiser to deny him that advantage, but is there some kind of rule about keeping control of the cruiser? It sorta seemed like she didn't want to leave that open driver door until she had no other choice.
 
She's making decisions in fractions of a second.
Unless actually trained/rehearsed/repeated & repeated.... you take what that fraction can give you.

(Sure wish she hadn't pushed everything to the left early-on though...)
 
I hope the above was meant to be facetious. If you were serious, it's a good thing you aren't a law enforcement officer.
No, I'm serious.
He started out walking slowly toward her, with a knife that was clearly visible.
She had plenty of time to get back in her cruiser.
And she didn't have to run him over, but she could have called backup from the safety of her cruiser.
And if he tried to break the window, she could have used her handgun then.
No one else was in immediate danger other than herself.
The suspect was not trying to flee at that point.
So why have a standoff and shoot multiple rounds in to a neighborhood trying to stop a guy with a knife, when you could have just got back in your car and locked the doors?
Her tactics are the tactics that get officers killed, or force officers to kill.

Consider this...
You're a cop.
Some nut is making a scene outside in your front yard.
You grab your handgun and open the door and step out on your front porch.
The guy has a knife and slowly starts walking toward you.
Do you tell him to drop the knife...and if he doesn't, you start shooting?
Or do you go back inside and lock the door and call for backup?
It's a "no brainer".
You don't want to get stabbed or cut, and you don't want to kill someone (even if that someone is mentally ill or on drugs or both), and you don't want to risk missing the target and shoot up the neighborhood, and a direct hand to hand confrontation can easily be avoided.

I'm not some anti-cop antifa punk.
I'm an Army vet and I support the police.
But sometimes the tactics the police use are just stupid.
 
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No, I'm serious.
He started out walking slowly toward her, with a knife that was clearly visible.
She had plenty of time to get back in her cruiser.
And she didn't have to run him over, but she could have called backup from the safety of her cruiser.
And if he tried to break the window, she could have used her handgun then.
No one else was in immediate danger other than herself.
The suspect was not trying to flee at that point.
So why have a standoff and shoot multiple rounds in to a neighborhood trying to stop a guy with a knife, when you could have just got back in your car and locked the doors?
Her tactics are the tactics that get officers killed, or force officers to kill.

Consider this...
You're a cop.
Some nut is making a scene outside in your front yard.
You grab your handgun and open the door and step out on your front porch.
The guy has a knife and slowly starts walking toward you.
Do you tell him to drop the knife...and if he doesn't, you start shooting?
Or do you go back inside and lock the door and call for backup?
It's a "no brainer".
You don't want to get stabbed or cut, and you don't want to kill someone (even if that someone is mentally ill or on drugs or both), and you don't want to risk missing the target and shoot up the neighborhood, and a direct hand to hand confrontation can easily be avoided.


I’m confused here. You’ve gone from suggesting she run him over with her vehicle (I can imagine there might be some questions as to that legality of that or if not then even just the optics of that decision) to now suggesting she retreat to her car and wait for backup. So we have a person suspected of attacking someone with a knife, who has now at least threatened a police officer with the knife, and she should instead expose her side or back to him as she gets back into the police car and then hide inside? So while she calls and waits for backup the man with the knife does what? Who is to say he simply stops and waits outside the car? What if he then runs or drives somewhere and attacks someone else all while the officer did nothing? Or he runs over to the police car, breaks the window, and starts attacking her while she is stuck seated in a vehicle, essentially surrendering any and all advantage she had with her ranged weapon as opposed to his knife? And her tactics are the ones that get officers killed?


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I’m confused here.
No, you're not.
People often say that to score points in a debate, but it's total nonsense.
You're not confused at all.
You disagree with me.
That's okay.
But don't make a silly statement like that.

You’ve gone from suggesting she run him over with her vehicle (I can imagine there might be some questions as to that legality of that or if not then even just the optics of that decision)
Yeah, she should have ran him over.
It would have been the right tactical thing to do.
Are you suggesting that the suspect was dangerous enough to shoot, but not dangerous enough to hit with the police cruiser?
At least by using the cruiser to take down the suspect, she wouldn't have endangered others in the neighborhood by sending missed rounds down the street.

to now suggesting she retreat to her car and wait for backup. So we have a person suspected of attacking someone with a knife, who has now at least threatened a police officer with the knife, and she should instead expose her side or back to him as she gets back into the police car and then hide inside?
Look at the video again.
He was slowly walking toward her car at first. She had plenty of time to get back in her cruiser without exposing her side or back to the suspect.
You could have done it, I could have done it, heck, a eight year old could have done it.

So while she calls and waits for backup the man with the knife does what? Who is to say he simply stops and waits outside the car? What if he then runs or drives somewhere and attacks someone else all while the officer did nothing?
It's a fluid situation.
YES, the officer must be able to think on her feet and make changes to her tactics.
If he turns around and starts walking back toward his car, she has options...
Try to deter or stop him, or allow him to return to his car and then stay in pursuit (which is not "doing nothing").

Or he runs over to the police car, breaks the window, and starts attacking her while she is stuck seated in a vehicle, essentially surrendering any and all advantage she had with her ranged weapon as opposed to his knife?
Look at the video again.
No way could he have run over her cruiser.
That's just nonsense.

And if he even tried to break her window, she could have shot him through the window glass and probably actually hit him without shooting up the entire neighborhood.
He actually got close enough to cut her, so she lost the range advantage by initially missing her target while he closed the distance.
And she would not have been "stuck" in her seat...she could have exited by the passenger side door.
From what you have said, it does not seem that you can think outside the proverbial box.


And her tactics are the ones that get officers killed?
Absolutely!
She is darn lucky to be alive today.

Don't defend poor decision making, or poor tactics, or poor training.
That does not help our law enforcement at all.
 
No, you're not.
People often say that to score points in a debate, but it's total nonsense.
You're not confused at all.
You disagree with me.
That's okay.
But don't make a silly statement like that.


Yeah, she should have ran him over.
It would have been the right tactical thing to do.
Are you suggesting that the suspect was dangerous enough to shoot, but not dangerous enough to hit with the police cruiser?
At least by using the cruiser to take down the suspect, she wouldn't have endangered others in the neighborhood.


Look at the video again.
He was slowly walking toward her car at first. She had plenty of time to get back in her cruiser without exposing her side or back to the suspect.
You could have done it, I could have done it, heck, a eight year old could have done it.


It's a fluid situation.
YES, the officer must be able to think on her feet and make changes to her tactics.
If he turns around and starts walking back toward his car, she has options...
Try to deter or stop him, or allow him to return to his car and then stay in pursuit (which is not "doing nothing").


Look at the video again.
No way could he have run over her cruiser.
That's just nonsense.

And if he even tried to break her window, she could have shot him through the window glass and probably actually hit him without shooting up the entire neighborhood.
He actually got close enough to cut her, so she lost the range advantage by initially missing her target while he closed the distance.
And she would not have been "stuck" in her seat...she could have exited by the passenger side door.
From what you have said, it does not seem that you can think outside the proverbial box.



Absolutely!
She is darn lucky to be alive today.

Don't defend poor decision making, or poor tactics, or poor training.
That does not help our law enforcement at all.


Actually yes I find your logic confusing.

I’m suggesting police choosing to run over suspects with their vehicles rather than shoot them isn’t something I see happening regularly or agree with, especially when the officer already had the suspect at gunpoint. People can move, generally more dynamically than a car. I don’t know that a police officer weaving a car to hit a suspect is better than firing shots at a suspect.

Assuming he didn’t start moving faster sure. Could she have made it in the car? Yeah probably. Do I think that’s the tactically sound choice? No, hence my response.

Absent running him over, most of the options to deter him would involve getting back out of the vehicle, putting her right back where this started. This assumes the suspect did retreat and didn’t continue the attack.

I didn’t say “run over her cruiser”. I said run over to her cruiser, as in on foot, to break her window. Read more carefully, please.

I don’t see what happened here as her “shooting up the entire neighborhood”. That seems like an exaggeration. Shooting from a seated position up at a suspect who is likely stabbing you or striking you is more likely, in my limited experience of shooting out of a vehicle, to result in errant rounds going into a neighborhood than what we saw here. Could she have crawled across? Depending on the layout of her cruiser, maybe. I don’t consider crawling or scooting across the interior of a cruiser from a suspect that has broken your window and is striking or stabbing you to be a tactical advantage when you chose to put yourself in that situation.

There’s thinking outside of the box, and then there’s making suggestions that seem ridiculous. I can agree the line may be a bit blurry, though I’m not sure that’s the case here.

I have no issue calling out law enforcement for poor tactics. The tactics you just described seem worse for both the officer and the community than what I see in this video.


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I’m suggesting police choosing to run over suspects with their vehicles rather than shoot them isn’t something I see happening regularly or agree with
It's the safer thing to do in this particular situation.
By pulling her pistol, she knows that every round she fires that misses the suspect has the potential to kill someone else in the neighborhood.

"Hey, this guy stabbed an elderly man, and he was walking toward me with a knife, and I felt I had no other option but to shoot at him...
I'm sorry that one of my rounds missed the suspect and hit your five year old child who was playing on your porch."

How would you feel?

I honestly think that some police officers are so focused on getting their suspect that they endanger other innocent folks.
 
I think that’s a possibility. I think that trying to run over a suspect that can then himself move and I then have to play a reverse game of Frogger in the middle of the street isn’t necessarily a winning solution. Other people can be driving and walking. There are possibilities of hitting them as well. I might not be able to hit the suspect and then I’m back where I started and I have to get out of the car. He might simply jump a fence and escape and harm someone else.

I get the concern about hurting people that are innocent. For the reasons I outline above and have outlined previously I don’t think trying to run over the suspect is inherently better.


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Sorry, but she cannot retreat (like a civilian), and deliberately running over the "Alleged Suspect"
will (likely) put her in front of a grand jury for potential manslaughter.
Okay, let me get this right...

She can use a taser to stop the suspect.
She can use pepper-spray to stop the suspect.
She can a baton to stop the suspect.
She can use her handgun to stop the suspect.
She can use a shotgun to stop the suspect.
She can use an AR rifle to stop the suspect.

But using her cruiser to stop the suspect would put her in front of a grand jury for manslaughter?!?

Not to mention that in high speed car chases cops have been known to purposely hit the suspect's car, forcing them off the road and possible killing them, and that's okay.
But hitting a suspect who knifed someone and is threatening the officer, is somehow criminal and unacceptable?!?
 
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