You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Another good article by Massad Ayoob
- Thread starter Beauhooligan
- Start date
OldMarksman
Staff
Horse manure! If I find myself in such a bind, I'll be hiring a real lawyer and it'd be just fine with me if Ayoob is hired by the other side.
Question is, whom will your "real" lawyer bring in as expert witnesses for litigation support, if need be?
If some of the issues that come up have to do with the distance at which you drew, how it happens that your third shot hit the so called victim from behind and why that doesn't prove that you committed a crime, why your choice of that Cor Bon bullet is not only not indicative of a malevolent state of mind but is actually a very reasonable choice for a reasonable person, your "real" lawyer is going to have to bring in a recognized expert witness to credibly refute the claims of the prosecuting attorneys and their expert witnesses. Just a few examples.
How the hell do you know who judges listen to?
The judges will rule on the admissibility of testimony and of evidence, and on whether expert witnesses satisfy the rules of evidence. They will instruct the jury. And later, should it come to that, they will be involved in the sentencing phase.
What exactly is the question? Perhaps you meant to ask whom the jury will listen to...
Do you actually know any judges??
Retired ones only, at this point.
Oh, do you know any REAL lawyers?
Yep. And I worked with some of them on some REAL cases, off and on for a couple of decades.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
I am one. Does that count? And I've taken Mas' LFI-I class and concluded that he does indeed know his stuff on the legal side of things. And having trained some at Gunsite and with Louis Awerbuck, I was pretty happy with his shooting training as well.Alleykat said:...do you know any REAL lawyers?
I have no interest in bashing Ayoob, or going through the article point by point. I ain't got the time. But I'm going to mention again the essay by Jacobs that I referred to in an earlier post. It covers some of the same territory that Ayoob's article does. Folks can judge for themselves in terms of accuracy.
I believe Ayoob's credentials are very good. I know him to be a good shooter and a good instructor. He has over the years written many useful books and articles. He has a very active career as a firearms trainer, a professional expert witness (most often for police officers charged in questionable shooting cases), a lecturer and as a writer. He writes for not only the gun mags but also for shooting industry publications where he gives advice to retailers and manufacturers on how best to sell various ammo and firearms.
I also think he's developed some habits as a writer that I think are sloppy. Particularly when it comes to facts. That's why I mentioned the Jacob's article which folks can read and draw their own conclusions from. In the above article Ayoob's overall points are good ones that I agree with. But the lack of respect for accuracy in facts that he has in getting there irritates some.
tipoc
I believe Ayoob's credentials are very good. I know him to be a good shooter and a good instructor. He has over the years written many useful books and articles. He has a very active career as a firearms trainer, a professional expert witness (most often for police officers charged in questionable shooting cases), a lecturer and as a writer. He writes for not only the gun mags but also for shooting industry publications where he gives advice to retailers and manufacturers on how best to sell various ammo and firearms.
I also think he's developed some habits as a writer that I think are sloppy. Particularly when it comes to facts. That's why I mentioned the Jacob's article which folks can read and draw their own conclusions from. In the above article Ayoob's overall points are good ones that I agree with. But the lack of respect for accuracy in facts that he has in getting there irritates some.
tipoc
N.H. Yankee
New member
Captain 38, its hard to keep track of Ayoob, he's a man who makes many tracks when it comes to being a LEO, I also wonder if he was on 2 depts at he same time, as a regular and as a Part timer or special. I think Ayoob has amassed quite a resume and when it comes to courtroom savvy he's the guy I want in my corner. I agree there have been many coach's that never played the game but coached to title's.
I was not bashing Mass Ayoob at all by referring to him as an armchair quarterback, I was actually praising him for his ability to play the game better than many who have been on the field of play. I find his articles informative, entertaining and useful. I've seen many a LEO with years of experience that were total nitwits.
I also think his lethal force institute set the stage for others that followed. Owning a gun and being proficient, may keep you alive but put you in jail for a very long time. Ayoob not only taught the tools, but taught when it is considered legal lethal force. Sadly to some prosecutors and judges, there is no right to use legal lethal force even when you were within the guidelines to use lethal force.
Like I said, I would feel a whole lot more comfortable with Ayoob in my corner, armchair and all!
I was not bashing Mass Ayoob at all by referring to him as an armchair quarterback, I was actually praising him for his ability to play the game better than many who have been on the field of play. I find his articles informative, entertaining and useful. I've seen many a LEO with years of experience that were total nitwits.
I also think his lethal force institute set the stage for others that followed. Owning a gun and being proficient, may keep you alive but put you in jail for a very long time. Ayoob not only taught the tools, but taught when it is considered legal lethal force. Sadly to some prosecutors and judges, there is no right to use legal lethal force even when you were within the guidelines to use lethal force.
Like I said, I would feel a whole lot more comfortable with Ayoob in my corner, armchair and all!
I was not try'n to say ayoob is a lawyer Thank god he is not, and i also know that he is not the only expert around, he would be someone your lawyer would try to have on the list of experts to try to cover what might have happened if involved in a gunfight. With out people like this we all would be in trouble in most shooting cases anymore. I know a man that had his boat motors stolen from his boat right behind his house once. Second time the robbers were caught in the act and ran. Home owner shot one in the back with a shotgun at 60 yards and killed him. No fight happend ,no warning was given. One of these untrained experts got him off. He could have gone to jail for murder. His expert was one of these well known men. He is a great guy and a fireman but got very lucky. Family tried to sue him and lost again thanks to the experts the lawyers bring in.