Another good article by Massad Ayoob

Ayoob always good stuff

I've been reading Ayoob for years and always find him worth the time. Firearms and the Bible are 2 subjects I often see, hear, read misinformation about, but Ayoob's work is well done. I don't know all, but I know the differance between chicken salad and chicken ****. Ayoob is for real. Check his blog.
 
I've read the article before and for myself don't find it too useful. Of greater use is an essay by John Jacobs a former Border Patrol Officer on "Ammunition Evaluation and Selection: U.S. Border Patrol 1970-2000" which you can find in the book "Stopping Power" by Marshall and Sanow.

I don't think too highly of Marshall and Sanow's conclusions but their books have a good bit of useful information in them and Jacobs' essay is worth the price alone. Jacobs' disagrees with M&S's conclusions but he shows his work and his approach, unlike Ayoob in the essay above, is though out and careful and based on not skirting the facts but explaining them.

tipoc
 
Get your legal advice from a real lawyer. Get your gunfighting advice from somebody who's actually been in a gunfight or at least worked a real l.e. or military job. ;)
 
Ok I'll try this within the rules.It is healthy to approach some writer's work with a bit of skepticism. Mr.Ayoob can be included in this skepticism, in my opinion.
 
Atticus Better remember ayoob's name and not with skepicisum. He is THE person to call if you ever find your self haveing to go to court over a shooting. That is most of what he does nowadays. No formal training but the judges listen to what he has to say. He IS the guy real lawyers listen too. Problem with some of these articals is they are not current or complete .
 
Get your legal advice from a real lawyer.
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Good idea. And if you are having a trust created, there's a specialist for that. For bankruptcy, there's another. For tax affairs, another. Divorce--and so on. And then there are criminal lawyers....

Get your gunfighting advice from somebody who's actually been in a gunfight...
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Well, that's kind of like saying, "get your air combat training from someone who has actually engaged in real air combat". Problem is, there are fewer than a handful of such persons left in the whole world, and they are probably fishing, or running some company.

So, today you get your training in simulation and in flight exercises designed from real world experience, and enhanced by analytical evaluation of newer technology that didn't exist when the aces of old ruled the skies. And the instructors are rarely pilots with real kills to their names.

Same thing when it comes to self defense or law enforcement or security training at Gunsite, LFI, SIG Sauer Academy, and so on. They teach what works, constantly updated, but that doesn't mean the instructors have ever shot anyone.

"Gunfighting" advice? All I really need is SD advice. A Marine or SOCOM fighter needs a lot more.

...or at least worked a real l.e. or military job.
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Real LE job? That would include Massad Ayoob. Includes a policeman I talk to all the time. Doesn't mean that I would consult a couple of other police officers I know for any kind of "gunfighting" advice.

Real military job? I would listen to an expert before listening to someone who carries an M9 with FMJ rounds in the magazine and none in the camber.

Speaking of experts, if your case is less than straightforward, your criminal attorney will probably bring one in to explain to the jury the way lethal force incidents unfold within the constructs of the law and to counter the arguments of the prosecution.

He probably should employ one who is highly experienced in such testimony. He might even be able to retain a former Vice Chairman of the Forensic Evidence Committee of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers (NACDL). Might even be the person who developed a course for attorneys entitled "The Management of the Lethal Force/Deadly Weapons Case" which Jeffrey Weiner, former President of National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, described as "the best course for everything you need to know but are never taught in law school."

That would be Massad Ayoob.

Yes, your "real lawyer" may need some expert assistance. If he does and does not recognize it, you have not chosen a very good one.
 
Hydra-shok has been supplanted by the HST. MUCH better cartridge with MUCH more reliable results.
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Information does become outdated these days. Personally, I've recently chosen the Hornady Critical Defense loads.
 
tticus Better remember ayoob's name and not with skepicisum. He is THE person to call if you ever find your self haveing to go to court over a shooting. That is most of what he does nowadays. No formal training but the judges listen to what he has to say. He IS the guy real lawyers listen too. Problem with some of these articals is they are not current or complete .
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Horse manure! If I find myself in such a bind, I'll be hiring a real lawyer and it'd be just fine with me if Ayoob is hired by the other side. How the hell do you know who judges listen to? Do you actually know any judges?? :) Oh, do you know any REAL lawyers?
 
Mass Ayoob, AYUH thats what we call him around here where he came from N.H. He came from Hooksett N.H. PD. A small town north of Manchester that when he was working as an officer, they usually only drew their guns to dispatch deer, rabid animals and to my knowledge never killed any perps back then or in recent vintage. Lets say it is mostly a quiet town, though its industry has grown quite a bit in recent years.

Ayoob used to shot in a club I too shot at, he still does compete and is pretty fast and accurate. I know some guys who still do shoot with him.
Ayoob is more of a statistics collector/writer than actual hands on experience writer when it comes to gun battles and ballistics. To the best of my knowledge he has never dispatched a perp, not even sure he's been in a gunfight, but i'll bet your lawyer hasn't either.

He is like an armchair quarterback, never been in the game ( battle ) but knows the playbook ( rules of engagement), can read defense's ( knows what prosecutors try to pull) knows the mechanics of the position ( has the knowledge the lawyer doesn't ) etc. Does this make him an expert, its a matter of opinion. He is a wealth of informtion, seems to exhibit common sense when it comes to testifying, but his credentials do come into question from time to time. Ayoob seems to be one of those either you like him or you don't, I do find his writing's interesting.

Would I want him in my corner, most likely. Most lawyers don't know a thing about firearms, ballistics, I'd be surprised if many knew protocol for a justified shooting. I think Ayoob's knowledge could be priceless, problem is getting past the ego's of many lawyers to work with him or anyone else, and they sure do have ego's! I used to see him and talk to him at local gunshows, but he hasn't had a table at one for years. All in all, he has done well for himself for a guy from small town N.H., and you can't take that away from him.
 
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All the back and forth about this guy is just silly. You don't have to have been in "gun battles" or whatever people are calling it to know something about the intricacies of all things related to guns and their use.

There have been some pretty great coaches in different sports over the years that were never great at PLAYING the sport themselves but made genius coaches.
 
Remember that Ayoob is also a gun writer. He has to write articles and make them interesting. He does that well, and I found this one to be accurate and entertaining. Ayoob is an excellent writer and he has experience in analysis of many police and civilian fire fights.

There are various opposing opinions about what constitutes stopping power. And one often hears the "one shot stops" concept. In war, in battle, or in a self defence gunfight, one shot just doesn't happen much. In most instances, one will not shoot once and stop if defending oneself. I personally would get a bead on the sternum and work my way up. That's what usually happens. Many shots are fired.

If one can make multiple, quick, accurate strikes in the kill zone, a number of handgun calibers and bullet styles will create devastating stopping power.That includes FMJ rounds. I hold no value to the one shot stop idea. It is not valid.

I would concur that it can be a starting point from what might work in a bullet, but there are too many variables to make it a valid point on its own. Some people can still kill you for up to ten seconds with three bullets in their heart. Others will collapse from a minor wound. There is also the serendipity of whether a bullet happens to strike a major nerve or artery, or in the head.

All Ayoob was doing in the article was providing some history towards the development of improved bullets and ballistic ideals while writing an interesting piece for some periodical or book.
 
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