Another drug raid gone wrong.

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The quicker we realize that prohibition does not work, the quicker we can properly deal with this problem. Drugs, like alcohol, are a social ill. The only way to deal with this problem is to remove the criminal element from it. Spend the money on rehabilitation and prevention. Stop filling our courts and prison system with drug abusers. That system is for hard criminals. If there is no money in narcotics, there is no cartel. Kind of solves the problems down south. Saves more lives from being wasted in this tragedy. Many husbands, wives and children have died in vain fighting for something that ultimately cannot be won.

No one want to see LEO's die, they are spouses, parents and neighbors. The public is asking them to play a role that is too great a price to pay in a free society. Military tactics are unacceptable and should be abolished.

We had a situation unfold like this less than a year ago. A officer was killed doing a no knock raid. All over 50 Marijuana plants. What a waste! Waste of freedom. Waste of life.

Robert
 
Drugs should be legalized. The War on Drugs has done more harm to this country than legalized drugs ever could. The social costs involved with this 'war' are immense. Lets realize that prohibition does not work. It never has and it never will.

BTW I personally do not use them. I am just being a realist.

No knock raids for mere possession of pot or coke are not justified. I personally hate the stuff, but the next 'mistake' they make could be at your house, or mine. And if a mistake is made at my house, I hope I can take a few out before they gun me down like a dog as they certainly will since I will be defending my family against what I will inevitably think are criminal intruders.
 
Is it just me or was the Warrant a little too quick for a $20 cocaine sale ?
SURVEILANCE - What about SURVEILANCE ?
We get COPS & LAPD here in Aus & the lengths that LEO's go to, to get EVIDENCE of a Crime is usually LONG & EXHAUSTIVE !
I sit here shaking my head that ANYONE would go to the lengths that these LEO's did over a $20 bag of Cocaine WITHOUT surveilance.
Who's running these Depts anyway...Deputy Dawg ?

------------------
"The Gun from Down Under !"
http://www.para1911fanclub.w3.to/
E-mail hotshot_2000@hotmail.com
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HS2000@ausi.com
 
"Is it just me or was the Warrant a little too quick for a $20 cocaine sale ?"

You think that's quick? There was a random stop op set up on I70 in the "north Denver" area a few back. The standard scenario the LEOs use is to have a big sign ~1/2 mile before an exit. The sign would read "random drug check in the next 4 miles" (or similar). Everybody pulling off at the first exit would be asked "can we search your vehicle?"
Those saying no would be pulled over & (so it was relayed by a few that were stopped) detained. There was a trailer fully equipped with a majistrate. Saying no was probable cause for issuing a warrant on the spot.
One of our most basic freedoms is the right of free passage. You can be pulled over for driving while black (profiling) or having long hair or (here in CO) having NM license plates on your car & driving north.
Unsettling aspects of this WoD is the continual errosion of just another freedom, a conditioning of the sheep & worse yet, it creates a schism between the good LEOs (the vast majority) & the good populace of this country; two factions that should & used to have immense respective for each other.
 
1..4,

You are a rational person - a goal I struggle for. So, “with malice toward
none”, let me excerpt and plagiarize a portion of your post.

Before I do so, please understand I deeply understand both your viewpoint and your sense of horrible loss in the drug war. Let us begin.
-----

How many lives have been ruined, persons killed and or maimed over
drugs such as liquor, beer, or wine? How many police officers have given
their lives in the war on alcohol or others in the line of duty related
matters? Was the sacrifice of their lives for nothing? Bootleggers are a
terrible blight on society, and if you sell alcohol, expect what goes along
with it; period.... The political ramifications that deal with this matter are
far reaching. Just look at what has happened in Chicago and New York
City over the last 30 years, the murders of government officials, judges,
prosecutors, and average citizens of our country. [For nothing?] All
promoted, bought and paid for by the bootleggers. So when we talk about
tragedies, look at alcohol, and the epic proportions of it; boggles ones
mind. To raise a white flag, and surrender to these "jack booted thugs"
who sell this poison is unacceptable. If there are better answers or other
alternatives lets hear them; by all means.... Happy holidays to one and
all!
-----

All,

I am not being silly or glib here. During Prohibition, those involved with
the manufacturing, distribution, and sales of alcohol were killed by
government agents trying to enforce Prohibition in the same manner as
drug dealers are killed today. Police officers died trying to enforce
Prohibition and consumers were blinded and killed by poisoned or “bad”
alcohol.

But alcohol still was made, distributed, and consumed. There were thousands of needless deaths, thousands of destroyed lives, and
organized crime became extremely powerful and pervasive.

Virtually anything you can say about illegal drugs also can be said about
alcohol.
-----

As an EMT who helped Paramedics with “dopers” and their victims, I hate
illegal drugs. But realistically, what has our “War on Drugs” done for us?

The good:
1) By keeping drugs illegal, some kids have stayed away from drugs
because of that illegality.

The bad:
1) By keeping drugs illegal, some kids have tried drugs just for the thrill.
2) Thousands of people have died because of our drug laws:
- law enforcement officers,
- stoolies/informants,
- drug lords, their immediate subordinates, and those who manufacture,
distribute, and sell illegal drugs,
- hundreds (probably thousands) of users because of overdoses or “bad”
illegal drugs.

3) We have expended untold financial resources because of or War On
Drugs! Billions and billions of dollars not only in law enforcement but by
the military and civilian contractors. What if that money could have been
spent on cancer research or a cure for heart disease?

4) Thousands of *innocent* Americans have been hassled, injured,
maimed, and/or killed because of the War on Drugs!

5) Americans have suffered incalculable losses of freedom due to the War
On Drugs.
- Private property has been confiscated and sold to reward “drug
fighters”.
- People are becoming more afraid and distrustful of law enforcement -
and the feelings are mutual.
- Our police and our military are becoming one and the same!
- Those in our government who would subjugate us take our freedoms in
the name of the War On Drugs. Americans are voting out of fear, rather
than for what is right. Consequently, rather than the government being
the servant of the people, we are becoming the frightened servant of the
government.
-----

I hate illegal drugs at least as much as any of you. But, just like gun
control, trying to make an inanimate object illegal is doomed to failure.

While we lament the loss of those who have served, let us also lament the
loss of those who *will* die because of the well-intentioned but
doomed-to-fail, War On Drugs.

It’s time for a change.

America already has legalized drugs - alcohol is a drug. Our hypocritical,
selective, self-serving, dangerous, and (worst of all) *failed* War On
Drugs must end!

Legalize it. Control it. Punish abusers. Let’s get back to being Americans.
 
As an ex-LEO and current trainer of LEOs, I do not feel comfortable with the amount of sheer hatred and threats directed towrds those in my profession.
Our "Jack-Booted Thugs" have one of the lowest rates of bad apples of any profession in the United States. I fail to hear Doctors being referred to as "Mengeles" even though they are responsible for far more deaths per annum than Police Officers. Where are the pundits to compare the slayings of truck drivers? Look up the number of people killed by 18 wheelers and compare them to the number of people slain by LEO's.
No, wait, that won't work. No Nazi word to label them. Airline pilots? How many people have died under the care of--what should you call them?

Those who suggest we should legalize drugs should look towards those countries thta have done so. I understand that the Swedish gorvernment takes ALL of your earnings over a certain level to finance the problems wrought by legal drugs.
HEY! There's an idea! Let's seize everything you make over $60,000 a year! No, wait--that's socialism...but, what the hell, anything is bettet than the War On Drugs, right?
This will probably be my last post. I can feel uncomfortable somewhere else.

LawDog
 
LawDog,

I hope you don't leave.

First of all I consider the police the minority group who are the biggest losers in the War On Drugs. They have to support and enforce this mis-begotten mess created by our parasitic legislators who live in the lap of luxury giving orders that get people hurt.

Police administrators who seek funding too often put their men and women in danger in order to increase the "importance" of their (subordinates') efforts. Funding. Money. The greater the resources controlled by the administrator, the greater salary and benefits he can claim for himself.

The cop on the street and the population he is sworn to protect and serve are the ones who suffer so "big wigs" can become bigger.

My sights are set much higher than the folks who protect my wife and kids (and ME!).

(Jeez, LawDog! You've got me sounding like an anarchist!! ;))
 
Lawdog:

You LEOs just don't seem to get it. It's not the actual cops who are despised...it's the law, the methods, and how the WoD is destroying the country that all of us love. Those who carry out the policies that are destroying freedom are the enemy.

If you break into my house in the middle of the night in a ninja suit, kill my dog (ATF), and point a gun at me and my wife, I will do my very best to see that you do not draw another breath, but if you knock on my door and show me a warrant, I'll let you in, call my lawyer, and make a pot of coffee for us all.

When you corner an animal, you can expect it to do one of two things, cower in the corner or try with every ounce of its strength to kill you. No knock raids give everyone involved little room to maneuver. The cops must shoot when the target makes a threatening move. The startled, barely awake civilian must make the critical decision of how to respond to the masked gang in less than 5 sec. Lives depend on the snap decision of a very scared untrained person.

You may say that that's the way it works, but what you fail to realize is that you forced the civilian to have to make that decision. It is your fault when they pick up the gun. You gave them no other alternative, no out. There is no time to say "Drop the gun!" You gave them no chance to realize that they are out gunned. You have forced them to have to fight for their life. You have instigated close quarters combat, when combat isn't called for.

No knocks are combat. In combat the odds of someone being killed is multiplied manifold. As a measure of appropriate use it should be assumed that one innocent life will be lost (LEO or civilian) during a proposed no knock. The objective should be balanced against the loss of life. If the objective is drugs look for another method. If it's a hostage situation, that's different.

These and other tactics, asset forfeiture laws, and all other aspects of the WoD are causing great damage to this republic. I would rather live in a country where I had to avoid drug needles on the street, than have to decide if that guy in black in my bedroom with the gun held to my naked wife's head is a cop!!!
 
I do sence a hatred of police each time someone brings up a botched raid. Sounds like the lefties in the '60s calling our troops baby killers. Lawdog, 12-34hom and myself have been defending LEOs for a while now to no avail. There seems to be a general feeling here that most police are bloodthirsty sociopaths out to cause harm for sport. I was going to warn off 12-34hom, tell him not to bother with this thread when it first started. I was going to tell him it wouldn't do any good to pick up the glove on this one. I was right. Go back and read all the posts here. This isn't a discussion. This is over-generalization, mud slinging, and blanket hostility.
All of the police I know are like us. They fear the direction our Government is going, they love their country. And their ass is on the line every day. I feel that our distrust and hatred of the ATF and their crimes has turned many of us against LEOs in general and SWAT in paticular.
I think our anti-cop attitude is unhealthy. I think we need to think a bit more and calm down a little. Reconsider the data you have on hand.
 
Lawdog, cdf, 12-34, I'm gonna say it again:

I AM NOT ANTI-COP.

Are you listening now? What I resent is when SOME cops play GI Joe against people who have done no harm. Like Ismael Mena. Like Dave Koresh. Like Randy and Vicky Weaver. Like the thousands of people who have been injured and killed BY BAD COPS thanks to Prohibition II.

Get it straight, will you? By apologizing for cops who kill without necessity (defined as "murder"), you ally yourselves with them.

Do I say, "Kill all pigs"? Of course not, and neither does anyone I know. Do I say, "Put murderers, whether LEO or not, on trial for their crimes"? Damn right!

Possession of a badge doesn't confer the right to kill. Most cops understand this. A few don't. THOSE cops are the ones I hate.

No generalizing, like you guys are yelling about.

One more time: BAD COPS EXIST! STOP APOLOGIZING FOR THEM!

End of rant.

------------------
"The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it."
-- John Hay, 1872
 
Dennis: Your comparison between alcohol and drugs is weak IMHO. Yes; alcohol is a drug and taken or "consumed" in moderation there are no ill effects from it; long or short term. Can this be said of heroin, cocaine, meth, Lsd, etc, etc.. The majority of alcohol related deaths come from it's abuse, ie.. driving while impaired. I can tell you from a peace officers standpoint that the public and our legislators are very serious about solving this scourge that plauge our highways. ie.. Lowering the legal limit to .08bac for operating impaired in all 50 states, harsh sanctions on driving privileges, seizures of vehicles for multiple DWI offences, prison terms. The mentality that it's ok to driving drunk is no longer viable. While i agree that one can not legislate morality, there are some substances that have no place in society. Do they have any redeeming qualities? [the one exception to this would be for medical porposes, prescribed and administered by a licensed physician]. I for one don't want to live in a nation full of junkies over and above what's already there, or foot the bill for persons who don't want to give the effort it takes to live there lives sober. Illegal drugs are used just a escape from reality, and those who sell them are evil. They prey off others who have fallen victim to that lifestyle. I choose not to condone such behaviour from either group [sellers or the takers] and never will. Until the laws concerning drugs is changed; i will pursue these persons under the laws of the state that i live in who: manufacture, sell, or use these controlled substances in violation of our laws. I took an oath to uphold these laws, and for me my word is my bond, nothing more or less. 12-34hom.
 
I'm not anti-cop either.

I'm just trying to point out that when you (the department)put a citizen in an unwinnable position, you are responsible for the outcome. You chose to confront the situation in a thuggish way. There are always other options. Noone's life is worth the $20 of rock (evidence) you're trying to prevent the destruction of, not the BG's and especially not a cop or innocent citizen (accident).

Why are these type raids being used? I can think of only two; an ongoing situation where there is a dangerous person that you need to apprehend (ie - hostage, Columbine, gunman hiding in an apartment building)or a drug situation where the tactics are used to try to prevent loss of evidence. Now answer me this. You LEOs who are so big on the war on drugs, would your children be proud of you if you were to die in an effort to prevent an idiot drug dealer from flushing or swallowing a couple of rocks of crack? Would it be worth it to them or would they see it as a waste of your life?

I know my answer. I would in all sincerity mourn you, but I would mourn you, because you died for NO REASON. Please don't you see the futility and waste of time, money, blood, sweat, tears, and lives in all of this. We will loose our freedom to this creeping cancer of LEOs as judge, jury, and executioner.

I'm not as mad as I am sad... :(
 
1-4,

Let's start with the points we agree on: :)

- I hate and fear the entire drug culture. The force and deadly force used by
those involved hurt innocent people as well as those directly involved with
drugs.

- Some drugs apparently have proper medical purposes. I leave that portion
of the subject to those qualified to discuss it - with one exception.

Locally, many terminal cancer patients choose to die at home where hospice
can ensure appropriate pain medication is available and used. In many
nearby hospitals, *effective* pain medication is withheld from patients
expected to die within a month because the drug is "habit forming".
(Further proof of our good intentions being both cruel and stupid!)

-------

I do not advocate total and unhampered access to and use of (currently)
illegal drugs. Please don’t think I want drug vendors selling their wares
outside schools during recess!

Comparing alcohol to drugs is much more accurate than most people
realize. Although I do not have personal experience with illegal drugs
(other than protecting my Paramedic) I do know that purity and
concentrations vary. That causes many deaths which could be avoided by
implementing standards both for the drugs, their proper labeling, and the
understanding of the user.

Legalizing drugs would lower the price. That would help drive the illegal
vendors out of business reducing the violence in the production, distribution
and sales of those products.

Lowering the price and ensuring consistent quality control might increase
demand. I understand illegal drugs can be more habit-forming for a greater
percentage of people than is alcohol. Here is where regulation can have an
effect.

Note that severe penalties deter (but do not eliminate) drunk driving, public
alcohol consumption, consequential disorderly conduct, etc. The same would
be true for drugs.

But if we legalize the drugs, we can better determine who is using. By
controlling the drugs we can prevent public consumption and enact severe
penalties for “behavior” rather than possession. (This would eliminate many
Fourth Amendment problems.)
-----

Some people say Prohibition created the Mafia organizations in America.
Maybe. But we all must agree that organized crime grew faster and quicker
due to Prohibition. I truly believe that also is true of the drug cartels.

Our current War on Drugs is a disaster. In spite of the tons of crap we find
and destroy, even the most optimistic Coast Guard, Navy, and Border Patrol
estimates indicate we are catching (stopping) less than 20% of all drugs
shipped to our country.

Drugs exist. They are being used - BIG time! We are losing the War On
Drugs, creating a militarized police force stronger than most third-world
militaries, destroying our Rights in the vain hope that “giving up” something
will solve drug use, and (rarely but needlessly) being killed by mistake by
those who are sworn to protect us.

I don’t know if things would be better if we change.
I only know that to make things better, we MUST change.

I’m open to better suggestions - I really am! Convince me.

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited December 20, 1999).]
 
Whoa LawDog!

I think you mean Switzerland or Netherland have drug legalization not Sweden.

I have a good friend from Sweden and as a few years ago he told me Sweden is quite uptight about drugs. They've banned certain American bodybuilding magazines that they think promote steroid use. I too hate Sweden's welfare state but it has nothing to do with drug legalization or use.

I think some of the LEOs are taking these criticisms too personally. Most of us are irrate at no-knock raids, not the idea of LEO.

Rebut the case against no-knock raids if you believe they are justified but don't try to claim that everyone here has an irrational hatred of LEOs.
 
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