Another .38/.357 case Q?

I don't think this is a big scary deal and I think it will go as hoped/planned.

Could you see different results with a good chrono? YES, however let's also admit that you can find lots of differing results based on all the factors that so many handloaders routinely ignore a lot of the time. That includes using mixed headstamp brass, inconsistencies with the press lever, variances in bullets depending on manufacturer, variances in powder handling equipment, variances in how well and consistently you are able to send shots over the chrono and how well it will read them.

One point worth mentioning:

A fat, black Sharpie permanent marker will put a swipe on the case head fast and easy. To make it the easiest, put all 50 rounds in to an ammo box and then just make five long swipes across case heads with your Sharpie marker.

You really want some obvious mark on your .38 Special headstamp brass warning anyone (mostly you, but certainly your heirs...) that these rounds aren't normal .38 Special.

Some old revolver from 1902 will thank you for the effort.
 
I agree that Skeeter Skelton did the but I don.t think it was a full .357 Mag. charge. It was more likely a load based on the old 38/44 S&W, the forerunner to the .357 magnum. I ave one of the old S&W 38/44 Outdoorsman revolvers but haven't run a full power 38/44 load in years in deference to that older gun. I'm trying to from memory here but IIRC, the preferred load was something like 11.5 to maybe 12.0 of #2400 powder. As I recall, it was pretty snappy in in that "N" frame 38 Spl. Probably be in the Plus P Plus level regarding pressure. When I had one in the late 1950s it was adequate enough to kill a Black Bear that became a serious problem. Took two shots. I made the mistake of selling that gun and regretted it for a long time. I took years before I found a replacement and I'll hang on to that one until I cross the great divide. The bullet I always used was the Lyman #358156 with gas check. It worked back then and it works now.
Paul B.
 
The answer will depend on the brass. If you go back far enough in time (the early 1930s), the original 357 loads were developed in heavy 38 Special revolvers using 38 Special brass. But in the intervening years, some things have changed:

First, don't use any modern 38 Special case for this that says "wadcutter" on the head. These cases have walls that are thinner than standard down near the web in order to avoid squeezing hollow base wadcutter bullets when they are deeply seated to flush with the case mouth. It will be weaker back near the head. Enough to matter? I don't really know, but, personally, I just wouldn't be tempted to try.

Then comes the separate question about the strength of the brass and head in standard 357 and 38 Special cases. This is another thing that can have changed over time. Old 38 Special cases can be found that are both lighter (semi-balloon head) and heavier than modern brass. It's tough to reliably discern the difference in strength by eyeball, though, as different manufacturers now use different alloys, ranging from 60:40 brass to 80:20 brass now. If the manufacturer is one you know, like Starline, you can probably call and ask if there is any difference in head thickness between the way they make these two cartridge cases. There may be. Brass and other copper alloys are, relatively speaking, more expensive than they once were. For that reason, some manufacturers will possibly have altered their dies to save a couple of extra grains of brass here and there. You know how modern efficiency experts are.

Make your own test:

Method 1: Weigh samples from your 38 and 357 brass that still have spent primers in them plugging the primer pocket. Fill them with water level with the mouth with no meniscus, no bubbles inside, and no droplets or condensation on the outside, and weigh them again. The difference in the two weights for each case is what is termed their case water overflow capacity (even though we are keeping the meniscus flat and not actually overflowing them). You will have to measure the lengths of the two cases. In principle, at a diameter of 0.357 inches and with 0.135" of extra length, if the heads of the cases are identical in internal profile, the 357 Magnum case will hold an additional 6.835 grains of water or 0.05063 grains for each additional 0.001" of length. If, however, the added weight of the water in the 357 case is less than this, then the brass is thicker somewhere inside, and sticking to 38 Special +P loads probably makes more sense.

Method 2: Trim one of your 357 cases down to the length of one of your 38 Special cases. If they then weigh the same, you are good to go. If the 357 case is heavier, you are not.

Note that for the above methods to be valid, the 38 Special and 357 Magnum cases should be the same brand both to have them made of the same alloy and because some manufacturers may make the heads the same and others not. Remington famously makes thinner case walls near the mouths of some of their handgun cartridge brass, so that if you trimmed a Remington 357 case and compared it to a Winchester 38 Special case, you might get a false indication of a thicker head, and vice versa.
 
I seriously doubt you will overstress a properly made .357 Magnum revolver by putting a .357 load in a .38 Special case.

The .357 was created using .38 special brass in the S&W N frame revolver. The longer magnum case was created for production ammuntion, to prevent its use in .38 Special guns which could be overstressed by the high pressure load.

It wasn't done to make the case longer to hold more powder, though it also does that.

If the gun was built for .357, putting a .357 load in .38 brass won't break it. HOWEVER, shooting that load in a .38 Special revolver might.

The .38 Special (aka .38 S&W Special - which is a completely different cartridge than the .38 S&W) was created with black powder, and there are still guns around that were made during the black powder era. The pressure level of the .357 Magnum can damage or even destroy those guns, with consequent risk to the shooter.

I've always felt that putting .357 loads in .38 brass was an accident waiting to happen. If you own a .38 a brief moment of inattention can put your gun and you at risk. And, if there is even the remotest chance that someone else has or will have access to that ammo, (not knowing what it really is) you're putting them at potential risk as well.

The most common scenarios suggested are your shooting buddy or your kids grab some ammo from the "wrong box" (the magnum stuff in .38 brass) and shoot it in a .38. Or your heirs do...

Either way, could be bad for them.

.357 brass isn't "unobtainium" there's a lot of it out there, even if current supply & delivery issues mean you can't get the brand new stuff you want today you can get it. I think being a bit patient is better than potentially creating a boobytrap for yourself, or someone else.
 
44 AMP said:
I seriously doubt you will overstress a properly made .357 Magnum revolver by putting a .357 load in a .38 Special case.

The .357 was created using .38 special brass in the S&W N frame revolver. The longer magnum case was created for production ammuntion, to prevent its use in .38 Special guns which could be overstressed by the high pressure load.

It wasn't done to make the case longer to hold more powder, though it also does that.

If the gun was built for .357, putting a .357 load in .38 brass won't break it. HOWEVER, shooting that load in a .38 Special revolver might.

The .38 Special (aka .38 S&W Special - which is a completely different cartridge than the .38 S&W) was created with black powder, and there are still guns around that were made during the black powder era. The pressure level of the .357 Magnum can damage or even destroy those guns, with consequent risk to the shooter.

I've always felt that putting .357 loads in .38 brass was an accident waiting to happen. If you own a .38 a brief moment of inattention can put your gun and you at risk. And, if there is even the remotest chance that someone else has or will have access to that ammo, (not knowing what it really is) you're putting them at potential risk as well.

The most common scenarios suggested are your shooting buddy or your kids grab some ammo from the "wrong box" (the magnum stuff in .38 brass) and shoot it in a .38. Or your heirs do...

Either way, could be bad for them.

.357 brass isn't "unobtainium" there's a lot of it out there, even if current supply & delivery issues mean you can't get the brand new stuff you want today you can get it. I think being a bit patient is better than potentially creating a boobytrap for yourself, or someone else.
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Agreed More of a learning exercise for me than storage.
 
Subject drift . . .

I thought of this post today at the range. Why? Because as soon as I got there, I found about 30 pcs of like-new Starline - yes, Starline - 357 Magnum brass. I collected them for sure.

Somewhat coincidental, considering today's trip to the range was with one of my 357 Magnums (686+ 3"). And yes, all my ammo was with Starline brass.

Who dumps Starline brass? Could have been a factory boutique brand that used Starline, I suppose. I have seen that before (I think Buffalo Bore??)
 
OK... I was going to wait until I had both cast & jacketed... but what the heck:

Last Saturday:
357v38-same-OAL.jpg


Two Notes:
- Plain Base (even beveled) handled > 30,000psi w/ Powder Coat (shaken, not stirred)
- Both grouped 3/4-7/8" at 50Yds (Lyman Aperture/Tang sight)

PostEdit: Make the case volumes grain/H2O (not cc). sorryboutthat.
:o
.
 
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Nick_C_S said:
I thought of this post today at the range. Why? Because as soon as I got there, I found about 30 pcs of like-new Starline - yes, Starline - 357 Magnum brass. I collected them for sure.

Somewhat coincidental, considering today's trip to the range was with one of my 357 Magnums (686+ 3"). And yes, all my ammo was with Starline brass.

Who dumps Starline brass? Could have been a factory boutique brand that used Starline, I suppose. I have seen that before (I think Buffalo Bore??)
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I was at the range yesterday and literally there was 300 to 400 FN 5.7x28 cases laying on the ground that someone blew thru alot of ammo not to mention money I thought about picking thh herm up but then …. I remembered how those cases have a special coating on them and its a chore to reload them no thankyou . I quietly stepped over them.

I only pick up 38special and 357 now. The single thing I love most about shooting my 586 is dumping those spent cases into my carry pouch and dont have to hunt for them in the dang grass.
 
dumping those spent cases into my carry pouch
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You got that right! And every year that goes by, it becomes more important. I truly enjoy shooting revolvers and not having to collect brass off the ground is icing on the cake. Revolver ammo is more fun to load too.

These days, it's rare to find revolver brass on the ground at the range. When I first started shooting (1983), I went to a range where nobody cleaned up - it was a mess. There was 38 and 357 brass all over the ground. 9mm was fairly common too (and some 45 ACP), but not as much as the revolver stuff. Times have changed. At that time, if I wanted more cases, I'd just bring a coffee can with me and fill 'er up. It was that easy.
 
44 AMP said:
I've always felt that putting .357 loads in .38 brass was an accident waiting to happen. If you own a .38 a brief moment of inattention can put your gun and you at risk. And, if there is even the remotest chance that someone else has or will have access to that ammo, (not knowing what it really is) you're putting them at potential risk as well.

The most common scenarios suggested are your shooting buddy or your kids grab some ammo from the "wrong box" (the magnum stuff in .38 brass) and shoot it in a .38. Or your heirs do...

Either way, could be bad for them.
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Hasn't he already solved that issue by loading them at .357 Mag COL?
 
Properly Labeled (and controlled) I don't see the same level of concern.
As to "... a shooting buddy or your kids grab[ing] some ammo from the "wrong box" ...,
that is a violation of BOTH conditions.

Note below:

LEE-358-200-RNFP-GC-Lil-Gun-sm.jpg

The Label above goes on the box.
Darwin in in charge of Reading what's written
 
robinny said:
Hasn't he already solved that issue by loading them at .357 Mag COL?
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Maybe, but probably not. Most bullets aren't seated out to Max COAL. .38 Special max OAL is 1.550 and .357 is 1.59.

.357 brass is longer which usually (not always) prevents it from seating into a .38 Special chamber, however most .357 rounds would otherwise fit into a .38 Special cylinder without tying up the gun.
 
Properly Labeled (and controlled) I don't see the same level of concern.
As to "... a shooting buddy or your kids grab[ing] some ammo from the "wrong box" ...,
that is a violation of BOTH conditions.
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Sure it is, and if you can properly control access to the ammo, like a lot of things when properly controlled, it won't be a problem.

The problem happens when you DON'T have complete and proper control. No one intended to lose control but sometimes, despite the best intentions and all precautions it happens.

I see loading .357 level ammo in .38 Special cases as a risk no one needs to take. Feel free to disagree...
 
With the Lyman 358156 and NOE bullets that have a upper and lower crimp groove ... if you load the bullet in a 38 special case and crimp it in the lower crimp groove the shoulder is now at the same place as if loaded in a 357 magnum case and crimped in the upper crimp groove .
It was designed this way for a reason ...
So loaded , 38 special case , #358156 crimped in the lower crimp groove ...
that round is too long to chamber in a 38 Special chamber .
If not ...how many fools would have blown up 38 special handguns with these loads ? Lyman still catalogs this bullet design and I've never even heard of a lawsuit ...
Load up a few and check it out they don't chamber in my S&W model 64 - 38 special ... the bullet shoulder stops it from chambering ... also looking at the loaded round sorta tips you off ... bullet sticking out of the case ...it's long !
Gary
 
.how many fools would have blown up 38 special handguns with these loads ? Lyman still catalogs this bullet design and I've never even heard of a lawsuit ...
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I can't tell you how many, if any have actually blown up or just broken, but I can give you some reasons why you don't hear of lawsuits because of that happening..

First, just WHO are they going to sue??
No manufacturer warranties their gun with reloaded ammunition. And for the very reason here, the maker has no control over what the user puts in the gun.

No point in suing the ammo manufacturer when its a handload that you made and put into your gun....

Can't sue the component makers or reloading data providers, they all have warnings, disclaimers and instructions on how to proceed safely, and especially because you have no proof that you correctly followed them, only your word and since you have financial interest in the lawsuit, your word alone isn't enough to prove you aren't at fault and they are...

Bottom line, if you made the handload and it damages your gun or you, You and only you are the party at fault.

If a factory load does it, you may have a case against the ammo maker and possibly the gun maker but if its your handload, you don't.
 
Being the party at fault isn't much of a deterrent against suing people these days.
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Nothing seems to be...but I cling to the hope that being the party at fault is generally a deterrent against winning damages from someone not at fault.

Possibly why I wouldn't be allowed on a jury....:rolleyes:
 
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