Annealing

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What do you use to Anneal your cases ?
I have been looking at a lot of annealing machines and I believe the best one for the money is the MRB Annealer price is 449.99 shipped and comes with everything you need to anneal just about everything except 50BMG and you provide your own gas and torch and house other then that there is nothing else to buy
What do you all think ?
 
I use the Annie (induction) - I believe I have worked out methodology for its quality control (not a slam dunk)

I think that a torch type system can work but it takes a serious amount of work to get quality control.

There is a wide range of views on the subject, real confirmation of achieving (or proving ) your anneal is not too much or too little or just right is costly as well as takes its own learning curve.

My approach is to shoot for under anneal but close enough that I maintain anneal as I am getting most of it and do it every 5 case cycles.
 
torch type system can work but it takes a serious amount of work to get quality control.
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not really, at least with the Annealeeze and the setup the OP linked is very similar.

1. adjust the torch so the flames inner cone is at the junction of the neck and shoulder. 2. set the timer so that the case is in the flame for 5 seconds. 3. load the feed tray and set back and watch.

note, you can do step 2 without the torch being fired up

I can do 50 - 75 cases in maybe 20 min from the time I walk up to the bench till the last case drops

I like that the MRB does not need additional wheels and the timing mechanism looks to be more repeatable. With the Annealeeze you have to change out wheels for different length cases and put witness marks on the wheels to ensure the same timing when you switch them out.
 
Yes I ordered the MRB form Mikes reloading bench and actually talk to him for about 30 minutes.
It’s actually a very good Annealer and I searched reviews of the MRB and everything was very positive and his support for the annealer is really good the day I ordered it was shipped with tacking numbers sent to me
All in all I think this is dam fine annealer
 
All of those annealing machines are cool, no doubt about it.

OTOH, ...

Get a Lee case trimmer setup for your cartridge.

Get some 650F Tempilaq indicator.

Put a stripe of Tempilaq on the shoulder/neck junction of your cartridge, "north to south."

Chuck up the brass in the Lee holder, put it in an electric drill.

Put the "hottest cone" of a propane torch on the shoulder of the case where it meets the neck.

In about three seconds of running this revolving case thru the torch, the indicator should have turned black.

Dunk the brass into a water bath.

Done.

How can it be any easier than this?

I have annealed thousands of cases this way, and am about to order my second bottle of Tempilaq after 25 or 30 years.

You can do six to ten cases per minute if you get it down right.

This setup will cost you perhaps $10 per cartridge you want to anneal for the Lee hardware, and $30 for a bottle of Tempilaq that will last a very long time.

You probably already have the propane torch.

P.D.Q.
 
I don't really think you need any machine or tempilaq to do a good job. As long as you get the case neck hot enough, and do not heat it to a super critical state, and you do not over heat the bottom half of the case you are good to go.

I use a hand drill with a 12mm socket and a torch. It works and it is cheap. It is time consuming though and something like the Annealing Made Perfect machine is on my list of things to buy.
 
I agree with Kilo and pcxxx42. A couple of weeks ago I had extra money in my hobby account and briefly considered buying a AMP with it. After mulling it over a few days I opted to spend the money on a new rifle instead. If the Annealeez ever dies I will just go back to the drill and socket method
 
I haven't annealed any cases in a long time.. Back when I had to anneal some '06 cases, I stood them up in a pan of cold water that came up to around 3/4 the way the case. I'd hit them quickly with a propane torch then knock them over in the water. I'd do a few then change the water when it was getting warm. I never over annealed a case and it was pretty cheap to get set up to do it this way.

Tony
 
I've got one of the EPInovation annealing machines, comes ready to rock n roll, everything is included except for a bottle of gas. Easy set up, easy to adjust for different size brass, the controller is easy to adjust the speed of the rotating pan, works like a charm.

Not having a feeding bin is not an issue as I would not leave a gas torch going unattended anyway, and feeding the brass 1 at a time is much effort. If I missed a cycle, oh well.
 
After much in depth and Jeephammer (use search) I am finding some of the remarks very funny.

To do it right you do have to know what your temperature is and how long to treat at what temp (easiest is high temp for shirt period but a candle can work)

If you don't know, you are simply fooling yourself and you are not annealing, you are heat treating.

Which means too little or too much.

But heck, what do I know.

Metalgod was the only torch guy I ever saw put the rigorous effort into that method.

And endorsements are meaningless if they come from people who do not know what they have done.
 
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Ok here we go

@ RC20 can explain to us exactly what properties of the metal annealing changes and why it may affect accuracy. Please go into detail about the time/temperature relationship of the process and feel free to post any pictures or other documentation such as chronographic studies of any studies you have conducted of annealed vs non annealed cases

edit - BTW pretty sure that annealing is considered a heat treatment, it's hard to anneal without applying heat. I think the term you are looking for is annealing vs stress relieving

edit 2 for the doubters

here is a link which explains the difference between stress relief, softening, annealing, and flash annealing

https://sites.google.com/site/lagadoacademy/machining---lathes-mills-etc/brass---stress-relieving

note that to fully anneal you need to maintain the brass at 932 f - 1022 f for a minimum of 30 min, or to flash anneal heat the brass to 1022F.

Any lower temps or shorter times would be softening or stress relieving. Heating the brass to 750F for a fraction of a second is simply softening or stress relieving the brass

It is my belief that the AMP is the only method accessible to the average reloader capable of flash annealing safely. However the real question is "does the brass need to be perfectly annealed?"
 
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hounddawg said:
Ok here we go

@ RC20 can explain to us exactly what properties of the metal annealing changes and why it may affect accuracy. Please go into detail about the time/temperature relationship of the process and feel free to post any pictures or other documentation such as chronographic studies of any studies you have conducted of annealed vs non annealed cases

edit - BTW pretty sure that annealing is considered a heat treatment, it's hard to anneal without applying heat. I think the term you are looking for is annealing vs stress relieving

edit 2 for the doubters

here is a link which explains the difference between stress relief, softening, annealing, and flash annealing

https://sites.google.com/site/lagadoacademy/machining---lathes-mills-etc/brass---stress-relieving

note that to fully anneal you need to maintain the brass at 932 f - 1022 f for a minimum of 30 min, or to flash anneal heat the brass to 1022F.

Any lower temps or shorter times would be softening or stress relieving. Heating the brass to 750F for a fraction of a second is simply softening or stress relieving the brass

It is my belief that the AMP is the only method accessible to the average reloader capable of flash annealing safely. However the real question is "does the brass need to be perfectly annealed?"
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My response to your question is, no. Your brass does not have to be perfectly annealed. Softening and stress relieving are the two main purposes of annealing brass in my opinion. Hot enough to soften the metal and relieve stress is enough. Like I said in my original post, Hot enough to soften and stress relieve, but not hot enough to reach a super critical state.

RC-20, you can not harden brass by heating it. Heating brass will only make it softer. I interpret your comment about "Heat Treating" as the brass presumably coming out harder than it was before. However, brass, without the introduction of other metals like Iron can not be hardened by heating alone. Even Iron will not harden much if it is not heated to a super critical condition before it is quickly cooled. I don't believe that this topic is nearly as complicated as some seem to think it is. Hot enough to soften and stress relive the metal without heating to a super critical state is all that is needed.

Even with some machines and different times, over heated brass sometimes can require just as much force to seat a bullet as brass that is not overheated. This suggests that it is possible for brass to only get so soft. I will try to find the video I watched about this a few months ago and post it here.
 
our brass does not have to be perfectly annealed. Softening and stress relieving are the two main purposes of annealing brass in my opinion. Hot enough to soften the metal and relieve stress is enough
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I agree 100%.

I have experimented with annealing/no annealing to confirm that for me torch annealing is sufficient to eliminate uncalled flyers on brass with varied numbers of firings and I have never had a split neck. That is all I ask of it. I have used the drill and socket method and the Annealeeze and had similar results both methods

I am also guilty as anyone of using the term annealing even though I know I am not actually annealing anything. It's kinda like saying you are head spacing a case, another inaccurate term but everyone knows what you are referring to.
 
It would be nice if people quit putting words in my mouth.

I am not a nuclear physicist (nuke sub guys actually have an abbreviated degree in that stuff). I understand the basics of nuclear power generation as well as nuclear bombs.

So, no, I am not a metallurgist or remotely an expert. I can follow how annealing for neck pursposes is done.

Annealing is not just softening metal, its a specific degree of softening that achieves spring back on the case mouth and stops the work hardening/cracking.

If you get it too soft, its just soft brass, not case neck annealed.

If you don't get enough heat, you have not changed the grain structure.

If you look at a new Lapua case, it is annealed clearly with a slightly silverfish blush to it (that forms over time, not right out of the furnace)

As I noted, I shoot for mostly annealed, enough to change the grain structure but the object is to be under over heating and wrecking it.

Once you over do it, there is no going back, it will stay soft, no spring back.

The Annie has recommended induction times to achieve that though you have to test and check them yourself.

And as noted in past clearly, its a multi check process to do so.

Sheese
 
15. Mouth and Neck Anneal

To the right we have displayed a casing after it has received its mouth and neck anneal. Annealing the mouth and neck of each casing is important to ensure the casing “grabs” the projectile correctly and releases the projectile uniformly when the casing is fired. Our machinery utilizes induction annealing rather than flame annealing. Unlike flame annealing, while using induction annealing, we are able to control the temperature, applied to each casing, to the degree.
Brass Mouth And Neck Annealing
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That is from the following - brass cartridges are a specific application of brass and mfg of same with its own subset of what the temper of the brass is BEFORE you start to form it and what you need to do for the neck after its been formed into its final shape.

https://www.petersoncartridge.com/technical-information/drawing-brass/

You will note Peterson cleans off the anneal coloration, Lapua does not. Its one indicator of not going overboard on temperature. If it cleans off its under overboard. If its not, its overboard and you have lost the spring back.
 
I don't test my brass in any scientific method. I just know what has worked well for me. I use the drill and socket with a torch method. I do it in a dark room and heat until just the necks are very dull red color. Not like glowing red, but just barely a nice even dull red color. I do not quench them. I anneal after every firing and trim after every sizing, even though they normally grow very little. I use the Little Crow Gunworks WFT 2 trimmer that indexes off of the shoulder as opposed to the base. I feel that this gives me a more consistent length of the neck.

Using this method I have noticed little if any variance in force needed to seat bullets and have essentially eliminated random fliers in several rifles.

I do realize that what I just wrote is anecdotal, but my opinion of its effectiveness is based on the results I have gotten.

I did not intend my response earlier to sound dis-respectful or argumentative. Only a slightly opposing view.

Using that process every single time
 
Fair enough.

It can't be overstated that you never ever want to make the case soft at the base. There is a reason it is thickest there and has to stay correct (like boom)

One of my tests is to heat to where I get a bare red glow in a darkened room.

The one poster talks about tipping over which is a common myth that does nothing and is not needed.

I believe Peterson does not state the full process in that the case is annealed during the drawing process (or extrusion whichever is used)

https://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/how-cartridge-brass-is-made/

The final aspect is the case mouth/neck annealing

Sadly for me I get flyers regardless of the state of the brass.

In my case (pun not intended but not avoided) I prefer to do what I consider about 80%. I loose no cases to over anneal, I have no splits. I do it a bit more often than some but that maintains it in the region of springy and that is all I am after.
 
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