Annealing under the Microsope Part II

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hounddawg

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ANNEALING UNDER THE MICROSCOPE
Part 2

Looks like these articles will be on a semi regular basis. The main points are


  • No conclusive evidence between dry and wet neck lubing although the dry does not work as well with very clean brass
  • Bushing dies work better than standard neck sizers. Collet dies have not been tested as of yet but they plan more tests in the future
  • annealing every reload gives the best results

I have already started annealing every reload so no change for me there.

As far as dies go if and when I get to my next phase which and start neck turning and shooting from custom chambers I will probably go with the Wilson bushing dies and a arbor press. Until that happens I will stick with my tried and true Lee collet neck dies. I just loaded up 20 .260's to play with the next range trip and when I checked my runout it was less than .001 for all 20. This is one of those if it aint broke deals for me

Seems as if the most consistent annealing resulted from squeaky clean wet pin tumbled brass. I still think the wet is a pain but I will give it another try. However this time I will be using a lube to prevent any possible galling when seating the bullets

so many rounds that need to be shot and so little time
 
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However this time I will be using a lube to prevent any possible galling when seating the bullets
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Any time I think of galling . I think of all the factory new ammo and how virgin brass does not seem to have an issue or at least none that seem to be wide spread where we should start pulling are factory bullets and reseating them with some lube .

Then there's the fact I also dry tumble with polish to remove lube from sizing . That means I have a very small film of polish on the insides of my necks . Is that considered a lube ? Will it stop this galling we now have a problem with ?
 
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Well this pops up at a good time.

I got two new samples of Templiaq from the source, same results.

750 melts sooner than 800.

I am a bit stumped (or maybe more).

As the wider spacing and the 1.8 seconds with 750 deg seems to be about right as the case is also not changing color, will stick with that.

More queries to follow both to Templiaq and Annie to see if there is some insight there.

Changing the spacing seems to have opened it up that even higher setting is not causing a color change (I know that's not definitive but it is an indicator)

Most interesting. A bit annoying as I mostly want to anneal not play with things.
 
I shot 2 strings of 15 this morning. brass was dry tumbled, annealed, put through a body die then neck sized using a Lee collet neck die, trimmed chamfered, deburred, necks were brushed. Then another trip to the tumber for 30 minutes and annealed a second time, primer pockets cleaned as necessary and primed with CCI 200's. The first 15 were loaded with 36.2 grains varget and 123 gr SMK's with an OAL of 2.880 . The second 15 were exactly the same except before priming I swabbed the inside of the necks with some silicon lube before priming and dried overnight

Unlubed Av 2736, Hi 2760, Lo 2710, SD 14

Lubed Av 2744, Hi 2766, Lo 2721, SD 12

These cases were on their 7th reload

I had a slight increase in speed, slightly lower SD but no noticeable increase in accuracy

I plan on running the same test with wet pin tumbled brass in the next two weeks

as far as galling

I quote from the link " We did experience some galling where dry (graphite) lube was used"

I myself have never heard of brass galling but any shade tree mechanic knows that a bit of lube never hurts when you have 2 pieces of metal sliding against each other. If you dry tumble then you have a thin layer of soot inside the necks and if you use polish in the media then you probably have a microscopic layer of wax there also I have no idea on what factories do to their cases before loading or shipping or if they are lubed in any way manner.

Again the way I load is just for my own personal use and it entertains me. The way I see it if I am going to put myself through the hassle of wet pin tumbling, recovering the pins and drying the cases then another 5 minutes to lube the cases afterwards is minor

edit - Metalgod you do bring up a good point and that is if after wet pin cleaning a trip to the dry tumbler with some polish might give the neck the lube it needs
 
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RC20

Did you experience a senior moment, I would expect that 750 would melt before 800. I am about get 800 for a not to melt guide. 750 melts fine, but is it too fine?
 
Nope, not that I don't have those SMs, but I have two batches now that the 800 melts BEFORE the 750.

Scratching my head over that one (putting it mildly)

Not helping the Annie has gotten erratic, settings not the same from each run and erratic contro0l ops (warranty so no problem) it will have to go back when I get done with the latest run of annealing.

In the meantime, I am doing what you should not do, Kentucky windage.

I am using the 750 as its a safer temperature, watching the smoke come out, watching the case for color change (color change can be annealed just right or gone too far)

It seems the induction is acting differently with the makeup of the 800 vs the 750 though I can't image why it would.

Idea is to stay on the safe side (both my data and others) and even a partial anneal to hold the fort until it gets figured out.

I may have beak out the crayons, rough are to get them to hold and see what that shows.
 
RC20

do you have access to a induction cook stove, if so see if the induction heats templaq at all. It should be the heat of the metal melting the templaq not the magnetic field. I don't bother with the stuff anymore myself. I used it to get initial settings then sat it on the shelf. I did one check after a few batches to assure myself that the physics of the flame was the same and will use it again when I change propane bottles

you are right about the color though, last night I prepped a bunch of Lapua cases. These are on their 8th reload now and have been annealed after each firing since their 3rd.The rainbow color a mm or so below the shoulder I am used to did not happen. Only difference was I wet tumbled the cases with pins for 3 hours instead of dry tumbling and made a very minor adjustment where the flame cone was hitting the case. I moved it just a tad (1/16 th inch maybe) more towards the mouth of the case. Normally it has been hitting the case just at the junction of neck and shoulder

I know the time was precise the PWM controller is about as accurate as you could want and with the digital readout it is repeatable. The flame is going to be the same heat each time as long as the cone of the flame is just kissing the case neck or shoulder dead center vertically. I have a hard time accepting that the minor change I made would affect the heat applied that much
 
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All fun stuff.

I think you mentioned cost. Up front and power or gas.

I have run 500 cases trough the Annie this last go, I have a KW meter hooked up to it.

0.13 KWH so far. I could get the calculator out, but call it at 1.5 cents. Maybe 2, would have to see how much we are getting hit for these days. Under 20 cents KWR.
 
Ok, I know the induction does not heat the Tempiaq, but I also do not know what's in it.

Factors to consider are the two temperatures when applied do not coat nor dry the same.

What I can say is definitely two different reactions to the exact same setup as close as I can mange and I think its pretty solid. Go figure.

I believe I am well on the safe side. Maybe not full effective but a regular anneal should hold things back while I see what the issues may be

I like the crayon better but in this case its not the right tool though roughening a case up should be inters.

I buggered some up on the last sizing (mouth hit wrong) so I have some that are identical condition to play with. Again annealing should not be affected by surface but it does have some carbon factor inside the case.
 
RC20

Carbon build up in the neck has a big effect on the process, I recently started using walnut hulls to clean with and it seems to do better from batch to batch. I don't think we will ever be 100 percent to the magic anneal point, but as Unclenick reminded us, we're stress relieving and close does count. I'm seeing results with the loading process.
 
RC20

I wonder if there is a pigment in the Templaq that can be heated with the induction field and there is more in the 800 than the 750 causing the 800 to heat faster than the 750.

You might try putting some of the templaq on a material that does not heat up in a magnetic field and see if the templaq melts or gets hot. If so then using templaq to calibrate would be useless since it would be triggered from it's own heat and not that of the brass

hmm just thought of something . Carbon is electrically conductive so therefore it will heat in a induction field. With gas annealing soot would simply act as a heatsink inside the neck and not affect the transfer of any heat added from the outside of the case.
 
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It seems nobody want's to address my points or questions :(

How come we don't see any galling issues with factory new ammo ? Fed GMM and Blackhills match ammo seem to run quite well . Does anyone know if they lube there case necks . I know 223 77gr Fed GMM uses a tar sealant similar to military sealants on the bullet/neck area . How ever there 308 stuff does not appear to use anything .
 
That has slowly crossed my mind, so many experiments , so little time to reload!

I did try the 750 crayon, can get a swipe very good but with enough time I could press it up against the neck while the Annie was still bgoing

Melts for it was about 3.5 seconds.

That's about 1.2 seconds above the coating melting totally.

All interesting .

Can do the same with metal, dry on the Templaq and as it melts the crayon apply.

It could be this is just too thin material to work with reliably. Ie crayon would suck some of the heat off and local cool spot.

Its really more mass metal. Most of my use was inner bearings race when I was heating them up with a torch.
 
Sorry I see you did . That's on me :o . I did not think there was a galling issue but thought those test may have indicated there might be . I was just wondering if there was something we all do that negates it in some way like dry tumbling of the little sizing wax that may be left behind because it really does not seem to be an issue .
 
RC I was just thinking that with putting the templaq on wood which won't get hot in a induction field that you just be testing the reaction of the templaq only. If it does not melt then that is one less factor eliminated. If you have access to a megger put some on wood and see if it is a high resistance conductor. Seeing if you can strike an arc across a strip of templaq on wood wmight do the same. If the stuff is conductive it would be worthless for calibrating an induction machine. That would be like putting templaq on the outside of a case being heated with open flame

edit - the solution just hit me. Put a dot of each of the templaqs on a piece of steel bar heat the bar from the bottom with a torch under the two dots. That right there will tell you if the templaq is working right
 
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Yep, we are thinking alike.

I do have a pretty good U changed piece that would work.

Maybe have to get map gas to get the heat up that high.

I can clamp it in the vice and do a pretty even temp rise I think.

I also have the 750 crayon and can use that as another guide.

In that case I can whittle off some fragments and have then scattered around the other two test points.
 
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It seems nobody want's to address my points or questions
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We secretly hate you and try to ignore you?

Nah, mostly get so busy with our own end we sometimes forget, then there is the SM thing.
 
Carbon build up in the neck has a big effect on the process, I recently started using walnut hulls to clean with and it seems to do better from batch to batch. I don't think we will ever be 100 percent to the magic anneal point, but as Unclenick reminded us, we're stress relieving and close does count. I'm seeing results with the loading process.
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Agreed, from a couple aspects. One is the anneal itself and the other is the lube factor.

The reasons I am shooting low right now (figuratively not literarily) is I can always up the heat, once its gone over the edge, you can't take it back.

If I had been satisfied with the 750, this would not have come up!

It is a learning experience.
 
somehow I find it hard to believe that there would be 2 batches of bad templaq, more and more I ma thinking that the templaq is being affected by the magnetic fields and not the cases heat which would open a whole new bag of worms for people who are calibrating their induction machines with templaq.
 
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