Annealing, Grain Structure

It seems that people anneal case necks to restore neck tension to enhance uniformity, as well as to prevent neck cracking. I've taken to retiring cases that lose neck tension - LC .223 brass after about 8 firings - and putting it in my "practice brass" pile which is for single-load / single-fire standing practice where poor neck tension has minimal effect.

This is not complete - for one thing there is no micro of new, unshot brass because I did not feel like sacrificing a brand new case, and didn't have a new case from the same year / lot anyway.

The two cases I did use were LC 84 which had been fired at least 10 times, from my "practice brass" pile.

I did not get a composition on these cases I used so that is another point of incompleteness. I believe it to be C26000 70-30 Cartridge Brass but it might be something else that is close.

I cut one case into 4 strips on a Buehler Isomet diamond saw, kept one strip as it was, took one and dipped the neck (only the neck) into a molten salt bath at 800º F for 10 seconds, put a third piece into the molten salt at 800ºF and held for 1 hour, heated the salt bath to 1,000ºF and put a fourth piece in for 1 hour.

The molten salt bath was 50% sodium nitrate / 50% potassium nitrate, which is Class 2 per MIL-S-10699B (free from everyspec.com). Bath temp was monitored with a type K thermocouple and verified with a Fluke infrared thermometer.

The second case - also LC 84 with poor neck tension - I held the case head and twirled the case neck in a propane torch flame for ~ 8 to 10 seconds (count of ten) - until my fingers started to get hot. It did not get red or glow. Cut a strip out of it to mount with the first four.

All the strips were mounted in styrene, ground flat on 180 grit silicon carbide paper, then 240 grit, 400 grit, 600 grit, followed by 6 µ diamond on a nylon cloth, and finished on 0.05 µ aluminum oxide on Buehler MicroFloc cloth to remove scratches. It is true that grinding produces damage layers, but sequential grinding on finer media removes each damage layer and produces a shallower one.

Aside: there are 25.4 µm (microns) to 0.001" so the solid particles in 6 µm diamond paste are around 0.00024" and the 0.05 µm alumina is about 0.00002" if I did the arithmetic right. The point is that you are cutting, not burnishing, but you cut really shallow layers at the end so the damage is removed and true structure revealed upon etching.

By now any Physicists reading this are upset. I apologize for using the term "microns" for "micrometers" - but to everyone but Physicists, a micrometer is a tool used to measure things, and a millionth of a meter (10^-6 meter) is a micron. I know "micron" is not a really word, but everyone uses it.

The mount was etched in ASTM E407 # 29 - 1 gram potassium dichromate + 4 mL sulfuric acid in 50 mL water followed by #34 - 5 grams ferric chloride + 50 mL HCl in 100 mL water.

Vickers microhardness indents were made at 500 gram load per ASTM E 384. All the measurements and micros are at the neck region of the strips, not the shoulder or any other part of the case.

Another aside: Everyone knows that grams are mass and force is in Newtons, but I'm sorry, all the instruments are calibrated in "grams load" and the reporting convention is e.g. HV500 (hardness Vickers @ 500 gram load). This is because on Earth and one gravity is one gravity, so the force (in Newtons) exerted by 500 grams mass is the same everywhere. Different on the moon or Mars.

You can use Table 4 in ASTM E140 to convert Vickers hardness to Rockwell B (HRB) but there is no tabulated conversion to yield strength or tensile strength.


This is the case as it was, after firing at least 10 times and no annealing. Fine grain, about 189 HV500


This is the strip that saw 10 seconds in 800º F salt. Not much different, 176 HV500 so it did see a little recovery, no recrystallization or grain growth


This one was held for one hour at 800ºF. Lots of grain growth, softened to 89 HV500 I would call it ruined.


This on was held on hour at 1,000ºF. More grain growth, softened to 67 HV500; even more ruined.



This was held in the torch flame ~10 seconds, until my fingers on the case body/head started to get too hot. It is down to 112 HV500 and the grain growth is not excessive.


I don't think any of this proves much of anything but it was fun. My boss was amused that I wanted to do it, gave his OK for me to use the lab on the weekend.


PS JeepHammer someone did let me try a USB microscope they had and I was crushed - I couldn't see anything very well. I have to keep looking for something to pinch hit for an actual metallograph.
 
great post Bobcat.

I briefly considered the molten salt method for annealing but the risk of fire and explosion were too great. It's not something I want to do at home or would recommend for others to try outside of a engineering lab

I knew that a lot of really great shooters have been using the torch method for too many years for it to be "ruining" cases. While I gather from your post and pics is that while it is possible to do so you would really have to go out of your way and make an effort to screw up.

Now that I know that the my standard annealing practice will not have any major effect on case hardness what I am curious about is whether the minor changes brought about will have enough effect on the velocities spread to affect the vertical dispersion.

Thanks again for taking the time and effort to bring some actual data into the conversation. Oh and thank your boss for me also.

On that note, I hope everyone has a pleasant and safe 4th
 
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hounddawg: I thought you left? off chasing Raccoons or something. (grin)

Bob: Thank you for the experimentation.

What is the HV of a new unfired case?

Grain structure look on same?

I like you over did it. That's often a good way to get things in perspective (my next step is to overdo the test cases with the 800 deg Temp on it and see how it reactive vs a glow (which I know is no scientific but its an indicator)

Interestingly while I am still just stabilizing cases (undershoot) the melt of the 750 and the 800 look the same melt though the 800 just a bit latter (have not dug in deep yet, just some quick tests when the 800 came in)

Per JH thought that is good, not remote hint of smoke or going black.

So far, despite repeated testing (clean up then re-test) no cases have taken on more discoloration. I could be wrong but I do think both a color change and the finish being different that's an gross indicator that its gone too far.

That tough choice between experimenting and getting brass ready to reload (and keeping up with the house work, some major autos work, lawn etc) and I have to get the head lamp lights covers cleaned up.

So with that and how its looking per someone who has delved into this to the max, I am feeling pretty good.

With JH advice I slowed the process down a bit and its all coming out very uniform as to the melt rate all taking place at the same time.

I still have to get my shims or jigs for the 30-06 and 7.5 so I can process that quickly. So far 7.5 is still one fired and only to play with, 30-06 is stray cases I am finding that I hand hold to get them fairly even with the ones I did before.
 
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hounddawg: I thought you left? off chasing Raccoons or something. (grin)

I was just sitting back watching it waiting until someone offered some thing more substantial to comment on other than opinion and conjecture


This was held in the torch flame ~10 seconds, until my fingers on the case body/head started to get too hot. It is down to 112 HV500 and the grain growth is not excessive.

I liked this in particular, it assured me that my socket and torch method has never ruined a case

sounds like a good starting point for me to starting to gather data next week on annealing and velocity consistency. Nothing as scientific as what Bobcat45 did. Just a casual study comparing 20 round batches of annealed vs unannealed using cases that have had various numbers of reloadings and various numbers of anneals and compare those to factory fresh cases.

I will try annealing some at 8 , 9 , 10, 11, and 12 seconds using an automated machine with a regulalted torch to see which if any get me to where I want to be. This all could just turn out to be a giant waste of time money and effort solving a problem that does not exist. A huge nothing burger to use a media term
 
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The NO HINT of 'Color' or 'Glowing' with a torch was probably more telling than the 'Time' since no target temp on the brass was given,
Which is what I've been saying all along, better 'Undercooked' than ruined, and if you see 'Glow' of any kind it's probably ruined...

I thought that 'Dawg' had figured it out and was going to ride off into the sunset too, only been saying he was 'Done' for the last 4 pages!
Still carrying that ego around I guess...

As for the USB cameras, I didn't give them much thought until the 5 megapixel versions came out fairly recently.
I use a scaleable calibrated Leica microscope (old, so no camera provision) for most work, including Rockwell testing. Came with the Rockwell testing equipment and works very good, but I wouldn't want to buy one new!
I've tried a couple cheap adapters but they don't work, and the $800 Leica adapter is more than I want to spend on this...

The grid scale lines zoom in with magnification, and that's handy so I don't make math mistakes trying to figure out what the scale is at each magnification.
Didn't intend on that, but with second hand equipment there is suprises, some good, some not...
I guess buying it from an old lab paid off this time, not so much on other stuff (rotary pin punch comes to mind, my 'Bargain' turned out to be a money pit).

You used F. instead of C., But you used a Vickers scale machine, that's an odd combination!
Usually it's Vickers & metric or Rockwell & English standard...
I do everything in English standard just so I can drive myself crazy later with the metric conversions!!!
Nothing like a little insanity around deadline time! ;)

Like RC20 and I have been saying, with electrical annealing, you see almost no color change in the brass, where stress relieving and slight recovery with gas shows an annealing color change.
I noticed color change in just stress relieving with gas, no color change when using alcohol burner, no real color change with electrical.

When I got color change with gas, I also saw pits where iron and unknown elements had burned off. Iron burn leaves a pretty distinctive mark, while the other stuff I have no idea since it just left a pit and no residue.

Electrical annealing at reasonable levels doesn't seem to burn off the iron, but you can get carried away and actually see where iron has melted a void around itself, then settled to the bottom.
That kind of makes sense because magnetic heating is going to heat the resistive iron faster, but not provide an ignition source.
 
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hounddawg,

I used molten salt to fix temperature, so I could let use time as a variable. Unless the contorller goes bonkers the temperature is not going higher than the setpoint, so the effect of time can be easily sorted out.

You are right it is not for "at home" but mainly because once it cools, the salt attracts moisture and gets corrosive. If you let it cool and cap it, no problem. And if you minimize the volume, the fire risk gets manageable. And keep organic stuff away from hot nitrates.

A lead bullet caster might be tempted to fill a little stainless steel dessert cup from Walmart with mixed nitrate salts, float in his melt, and dip case necks...

My boss is cool - he knows that if I'm in the lab for a 'government (of, by, and for the people) job' that I will do some 'actual' work, too - but he thinks we're nuts to even bother to reload fired cartridges. Think of a guy who throws away the wood stick from his ice cream bar, then has to find a nail or ballpoint pen to mix his J-B Weld.

But I bet the deer he puts in the freezer every year tastes better than an MR-1 target with cardboard backer, no matter how you season it. More nutritious, too.


RC20,

No new, unfired LC 84 case, but I found an LC 13 case with primer still crimped in; once-fired so not pristine, but minimal cold work.



Microstructure and hardness - 122 HV500 - is not far off the "torch" one - a few points Vickers is nothing, a few points Rockwell C means lots.


JeepHammer,

Used Vickers because it is what I have. Nice to put the indenter midwall on the cut face, with nothing under it but brass (not testing the anvil).

Full disclosure - it takes a few tries to get the indenter centered, in a properly etched area, to take a "nice" picture - so the pictures are selective. But it takes comparing a couple of Vickers readings on the same sample to trust that the one you are photographing is actually "right".

I'm convinced that anything you do - flame, induction, or hot salt - to get the neck to the proper temperature, for the right time, will work fine. And if I were shooting a unique or hard to come by cartridge I would for sure be annealing necks.

But .223 brass is cheap, lasts around 8 firings before the neck tension gets iffy, and after that it is still good for standing practice. When I shoot a 7 standing it is because I jerked, flinched, or lost focus - not because of non-uniform neck tension!
 
BobCat45,

Thanks for sharing all this. I do, however, think doing a selection of new brass, just to see what the manufacturers have found to be optimal, would be worth seeing. If you can't bear to sacrifice any, PM me. I'll take the hit and send you some sacrificial lambs.
 
Bobcat, thanks again. I will chime in with Uncle Nick and volunteer a couple of fresh from the box Lapua cases if you want them to test. Just msg me with a address and I will fire them off to you

I agree with you on annealing the rare brass vs common stuff. Unless you are shooting at range where a 50 FPS difference will move the bullet 2 or 3 inches or shooting cases which are rare and costly I would not bother with it at all

I briefly looked into the molten salt bath method using a lead pot but decided that it was just too risky to try at home. I will leave that along with grain analysis to the pros.

This week I will start doing some testing of my own annealing efforts. I don't have access to any lab grade testing equipment so I will use what I have, my rifle and a chrono. A couple of hundred rounds will not be enough to prove or disprove anything statistically but will be sufficient data for me to make a thread with what I find and decide if I want to pursue it further. I should be finished by August
 
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Happy to do it! I post infrequently because everyone here knows more about shooting than I do - someone always answers better than I might. So doing something I know about will make me feel less of a parasite.

Let's define a goal / plan for this. I do not generally buy brass new, that's why I have no new brass to contribute. One case from any particular brand/year/caliber will furnish several neck specimens, and I can get micros and microhardness on one specimen.

So if we want to know what a new, Brand X, caliber Y neck looks like, that takes one case. Same for N-times fired, Brand X, caliber Y, and so forth.

Let me know what we are after and I'll PM my address.

Note that this is predicated on my doing the work off-hours, time and Management permitting, and limited by intrusions of Real Life (e.g. Wife to doc, dog or cat to Vet, truck down for parts, WWIII starting, and so forth).
 
I don't know of the amount of work involved but I'm willing to send what ever is needed of what I have .

Example :

I have virgin 308 Lapua brass as well as once fired from the same lot# . I could send one of each to see what the difference may be .

I also have 5.56 once fired LC brass and 5 times FL sized , loaded and fired of the same year . Not sure if from the same lot though .

As well as 308 WCC-06 brass that has been FL sized , loaded and fired 8 times and annealed using the torch and socket method after the fourth loading . I believe I have a piece that is still only once fired for comparison but I'd need to check on that to be sure .

I'll let you smarter folks figure out all the parameters , Just tell me what you want sent :)
 
I'll let you smarter folks figure out all the parameters , Just tell me what you want sent

ditto for me, I can offer a piece of either brand new or used Lapua .308 or .260 Remington or any combination. I understand the time constraints so if you only want to do one or two pieces of the new stuff just to have a standard with which to compare.

Doing one would give us the data for a new Lapua, data from two cases from 2 lots would give data on the consistency. Just my thoughts at least, I would defer to judgement of the more experienced people here
 
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I have samples of Lapua, Norma, LC, IMI, Winchester, Remington, Federal and the new Starline .308 brass that are new and never-loaded. Probably more than that, if I go poking into corners, actually. The three of principle interest to me would be the LC, Lapua, and Norma. They all have good reputations so they presumably all do a pretty fair job. Part of Norma's QA program is to randomly sample cases and make sure they survive at least 10 reloadings (or 10 loadings, with 9 being reloads—I forget which) without neck splits, so they must have a good handle on optimizing the partial annealing process.
 
Unclenick said:
The three of principle interest to me would be the LC, Lapua, and Norma.

UN I'd like to see Federal added to that list . Only because we've all heard how it's softer . I'd like to see how they compare to Lapua and others .
 
I think all the hardness complaints are about the head (primer pocket growing too easily). I don't know that the necks are particularly different from other makers. That said, their match ammo has such a good reputation that knowing what they use at the necks would, indeed make it a good choice.
 
Most certainly hard to hit a prepaired microstructure area with a hardness tester!
A cross section of a side wall is almost impossible to hit.
You are correct about NOT testing the anvil! Made that mistake myself!

I usually don't do hardness punch on the microstructure sample since I usually mount samples and the mounting materials don't lend themselves well to punching.

You stepped up the game!
REALLY good work!
 
Metal God has 308 Lapua brand new and once-fired...

and 5.56 LC - once-fired and 5 times resized. I think we kind of have this covered already, I posted once-fired and 8-times fired LC.
He also has 308 WCC-06 8-times fired and torch annealed and might have once-fired.

hounddawg has 308 Lapua

Unclenick has Lapua, Norma, LC, IMI, Winchester, Remington, Federal and the new Starline .308 brass

The common thread is 308 Lapua.

I propose that we go with the eight makes of 308 that Unclenick has, since it includes Lapua, and see how that goes.

I'll PM Unclenick my address right after I post this.

JeepHammer - no possible way in the world I could drop an indenter midwall in a case neck in a mount, freehand! If I were steady enough to do that, every score would be 200-20X - which, believe me, they aren't.

The microhardness tester has an X-Y table, with micrometers, that holds the mount face up. Imagine a miniature vertical milling machine, with a turret with indenters and objective lenses where the tool chuck would be. Only thing makes it hard to hit the exact midwall is minor inexactitude in the detents of the turret.

You can Google "Wilson-Tukon 230 image" to get an idea what it looks like.

Also see http://www.gordonengland.co.uk/hardness/microhardness.htm for a pretty good writeup.

You can use a microhardness tester to measure things like case depth on carburized or nitrided parts. If the specimen has any size there is metal below the surface of the mount. And if you are interested in what is happening at the edge, that's one instance where the "specialized" hot-mount phenolic or epoxy is advised, otherwise the hobby-store clear styrene you mention is totally good enough (and cheaper!).

Somehow I think F. Guffey is right that the real proof of the pudding is measuring the force to pull a seated bullet and looking for variation.
 
I could never do it, that's why my samples are outside sidewall samples and not edge samples.
Some guys do inside sidewalls, I tried it, but it's just so much easier to hit the outside of the case,
MUCH bigger target for my old eyes and production equipment.... (Sucks getting old! I used to be able to read the microprinting on $100 bills, now I need longer arms & stronger glasses to read a large type menu!)

Good shots of microcrystalline (too hard) and mono-chrystaline (your 'Too Soft' image),
I don't know what microscope you are using, but it takes pictures clear as a bell, and your smaples are virtually perfectly prepped! Excellent work, and that's coming from someone that's actually tried to get my samples that good looking!

Did you say you were finishing under half micron? Are you using diamond abrasive in that finish?
If so, what kind and is there a common abrasive out there that is equivalent?
My finishes are with stone lapping compound, cheaper but doesn't give that clean of cut..
Your etching treatment is second to none, I may have to invest in some scientific grade etchants.

I bought the cheap polarized filters and they produced crap all around...
I see the pictures come back from the (proper) lab and the grains jump out at you!
I can't even come close with my low budget equipment, and I'm butt hurt about the $800 unit for the microscope I have just for a hobby job. Maybe someday I'll stumble into Leica polarizing kit for mine, but not today...
 
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Also, don't take it wrong, Vickers machine is what I should be using instead of Rockwell.
I have a calibrated Rockwell, so that's what I use.
Although the conversions are a pain, it's pretty accurate & it's paid for!
My required lab samples come back VERY close to what the shop done samples tested out at.

When you mention leveling on a pointed indenter, that's when I know you have pulled your hair out more than once!
Not a lot of material there to get 'Flat' in the first place, and getting the sample flat spot level in the machine is mind numbing sometimes!
There is a reason I'd rather be cutting metal or shooting than doing this QC stuff!
 
I can throw in once fired PPU.

I am interested in that, its all I hve in 7.5 Swiss and I have 200 or so each in 308 and 30-06.

It seems to do well.


: The FC soft seems to do more with cracked bases (for me) than anything else.

Even with some careful shoulder bumping it occurred.

I don't know if it was fired in just a single rifle though.

Its nice to work with, primer pockets did not get loose but 8 firings was the limit.
 
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