Animal defense: Hollow Points vs Full Metal Jacket

big and slow

Smaller animals explode more and die faster when well hit with a high-speed 115g JHP +P or +P+-type rd.
Smaller animals requiring a bit (but only a bit) more penetration explode more and die faster when well hit with a high-speed 124/127g JHP +P or +P+-type rd.

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BuffaloBore.....

Bear vs the 9x19?
Most highly recommend the fastest heaviest-bullet choice; otherwise you'll just be carrying a 38 Special......(need at least 147g/1100fps).
 
I've been going into the wilderness since I was a child, and that's just too small a round to really feel safe with. Much better than a sharp stick, and bears are more skittish than is generally realized, so if it's all you own, by all means take it and load it with something heavy and flat-nosed for penetration. As soon as possible, I advise saving up for a .357 or .44 mag.
 
bears are more skittish than is generally realized
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Exactly. The odds of seeing a bear are small. That's because the bears will hear and smell you long before you have a clue they are around - then they are no longer around. Most of the time that is. Probably 20-50x more bears will vanish after detecting you than you see.
 
After reading cougars post about charging bears that will immediately start to feed on you, will you still carry that 9mm? I'm thinking of upgrading to a .454!
 
With that many bears around, I'd carry a 44 Magnum or even a nice Marlin 45-70 Guide Gun...

marlin2_0.jpg


Or, you could get a Marlin 336w 30-30 for under $400 (new).

Marlin336w-30-30.jpg
 
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the 12 ga .72 cal slug is recommended in alaska for charging grizzlies. since hunting season ended in feb. i have found 3 mossberg 12 ga model 500 pumps for $100 to $120 each. they are cheap and reliable. i know it would be a pain to have to carry one with your .22 rifle.

at the very least, i would carry my s&w model 29 .44 mag but that cost me $530 used and some of the finish was wore off.

checkout how scary this video is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjHiu4RWMBk&playnext=1&videos=Gxg72erF_qs
 
When I first thought about buying a hand gun, the first question asked was "What do you want the gun for Home deffence or protection?" I replied I want something that would stop a Black Bear. They just laughed. In a couple of years when I retire I plan on moving to Arkansas and unlike the state I live in you have walk through woods to find that fishing spot and I believe there are Black Bears in Arkansas. It is not just bear but other critters that can hurt you, some on two legs and some on four.

I know where to aim at the ones on two legs and the smaller four legged critters will stop with a few shots but where do you aim on a Black Bear to stop him?
 
head. he will be charging so every shot is a closer one. if you are carrying a .44 mag revolver, fire at him 5 times, save the last shot till he is right there. i got into the habbit of counting out loud while shooting weather its s&w .44 mag revolver or glock 19.
 
I really, really, really, really hope you don't run into any aggressive bears.
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Me too. I've hiked and ridden mules through a lot of that area, and there are some really nice sized black bears up in the Mogollon Rim country. Would hate to see them shot with a 9mm to run off and die a miserable death from infection.

Not many bear attacks up there, although I do remember one up near Payson back around 1991. The bear was fighting with some guys dog, so he ran over and punched it. That bear apparently wasn't much more impressed with his punch than most would be with a 9mm, and it tore the guy's shoulder up pretty good.

I reckon the moral of the story is to have enough dog to put the bear up a tree, or anough gun to put it on the ground.

My dad once advised a fella to file the front sight off of his 9mm before shooting a bear with it. I dunno, but it might be good advice.

Oh, but the OP asked what I'd choose for those guns...

I'd go with bear spray.

Daryl
 
When the bear sees you carrying a 9mm it will have a BIG grin on its face.
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And if he knew you were loaded up with 147 gr. slugs, he'd probably laugh. That bullet weight never was the best performer in 9mm, and the thought of it being relied on to break bones and still penetrate with it's lack of momentum is amusing.

Yes, I know, some newer loadings, like HST, have put the 147 gr. on a respectable level, but we're talking bears here.
 
COUGAR GT-E said:
Bears make many body motions. That's how they communicate, we just don't understand. A bear that is just sitting and looking at you is no threat, don't shoot. A bear that is standing up may just be trying for a better look and is not an immediate threat, don't shoot. A bear that is chomping its teeth (clack clack clack) is warning you to leave. Typically a mother with cubs on HER side away from you. Facing her, back away fairly quickly but NOT FAST or you may trigger a charge. Still, not a direct threat as long as you leave, don't shoot. A bear may be afraid of you and will charge to within 30' then stop. Bluff charge (scary), but you can back away. Maybe shoot, but try to back away with the threat covered in the sites!

When the bear is wagging its head back and forth or doing a full body wag with all 4 paws on the ground --> that's the BAD sign. The bear is deciding if you are good to eat or not and is working up the courage to kill you. You are not a threat to it, it is not afraid of you and it is hungry. If the bear then starts to sidle up to you with it's head low, a bit to the side and ears back --> time to unload the mag! The bear may also just go from the full body wag to a full speed charge --> unload the mag!. Maybe the first one in the dirt in front, but be mentally ready for a charge like a Mac truck on the freeway. A big bear can reach speeds of 30-35 mph in a short short short distance. You'd swear it was instantly going from 0-30, so plan on aiming low. If you chicken out, turn and run --> you'd best hope you already made a kill hit or YOU ARE DEAD. Only way to live is to stand your ground and feed lead into the vitals.

Unlike Grizzly bears, black bears won't stop if you "play dead", they will just start feeding.

A bit long winded, but that's when I would start shooting.
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That's about what I've learned as well... very well stated and very good advice.
 
Bears make many body motions. That's how they communicate, we just don't understand. A bear that is just sitting and looking at you is no threat, don't shoot. A bear that is standing up may just be trying for a better look and is not an immediate threat, don't shoot. A bear that is chomping its teeth (clack clack clack) is warning you to leave. Typically a mother with cubs on HER side away from you. Facing her, back away fairly quickly but NOT FAST or you may trigger a charge. Still, not a direct threat as long as you leave, don't shoot. A bear may be afraid of you and will charge to within 30' then stop. Bluff charge (scary), but you can back away. Maybe shoot, but try to back away with the threat covered in the sites!

When the bear is wagging its head back and forth or doing a full body wag with all 4 paws on the ground --> that's the BAD sign. The bear is deciding if you are good to eat or not and is working up the courage to kill you. You are not a threat to it, it is not afraid of you and it is hungry. If the bear then starts to sidle up to you with it's head low, a bit to the side and ears back --> time to unload the mag! The bear may also just go from the full body wag to a full speed charge --> unload the mag!. Maybe the first one in the dirt in front, but be mentally ready for a charge like a Mac truck on the freeway. A big bear can reach speeds of 30-35 mph in a short short short distance. You'd swear it was instantly going from 0-30, so plan on aiming low. If you chicken out, turn and run --> you'd best hope you already made a kill hit or YOU ARE DEAD. Only way to live is to stand your ground and feed lead into the vitals.

Unlike Grizzly bears, black bears won't stop if you "play dead", they will just start feeding.

A bit long winded, but that's when I would start shooting.
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Best bear post ever.
People are always confused re grizzly vs blacks.
THANK YOU!!!
Should be a sticky
 
Bears + 9mm = FAIL. Please re-think your caliber choice.
If you shoot a bear with 9mm you stand a good chance of
wounding the animal. Now you have a wounded predator
running loose. It may die or it may attack. Ethically, it is
wrong to use a less than effective caliber.
 
Bears + 9mm = FAIL. Please re-think your caliber choice.
If you shoot a bear with 9mm you stand a good chance of
wounding the animal. Now you have a wounded predator
running loose. It may die or it may attack. Ethically, it is
wrong to use a less than effective caliber
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Reminder...a 44mag isn't exactly Thors Hammer.
Pretty weak when compared to heavy hitters like .223remington.
This always comes up and decays into the same thing....your goal is not to kill the bear, it's to get your (and in my case, my kids)asses out of there with a minimum of damage.
Dept of Fish and Game can come in with hounds and firepower to clean up afterward.
 
Press Release for Buffalo Bore Heavy 30-30

Press Release for Buffalo Bore Heavy 30-30

Heavy 30-30 Winchester Ammo - 190 gr. JFN @ 2100 fps (1860 ft.lbs.) - 20 Round Box

Buffalo Bore is introducing a truly Heavy 30-30 Winchester loading. This new load utilizes a 190gr. custom Hawk bullet and gives the venerable 30-30 here-to-for unrealized power and is designed so that the person who owns a 30-30 can now reliably kill elk or moose sized game. The 30-30 can now be carried as a defensive tool in grizzly country and will be much more effective in stopping a grizzly attack than any other 30-30 ammunition in the world. This heavy 30-30 load is not designed for deer, although it will kill deer and if you line them up right, it will kill three or four deer with one shot……….

The custom 190gr. hawk bullet is designed with a harder core and thicker than normal jacket, so the expansion is minimal, thus insuring very deep penetration which is needed to break large bones and destroy organs deep inside large game animals. This load generates an unreal 2100 fps from normal 20 inch carbines—this is the type of velocity that the ordinary 170gr. 30-30 loads generate, but again, we are using a 190gr. bullet. The product SKU# for this load is 28A/20

Check the below real world velocities from my personal stock, over-the-counter firearms—truly amazing.

2071 fps -- Marlin Model 336 20 inch saddle ring carbine circa 1950’s
2061 fps -- Win. Model 94 20 inch carbine circa 1980’s
2075 fps -- Win. Model 94 20 inch carbine circa 1953
2116 fps -- Win. Model 94 20 inch carbine circa 1963
2172 fps -- Marlin model 336A 24 inch carbine circa 1940’s
2146 fps -- Win. Model 94 20 inch carbine circa 1980’s
2020 fps -- Win. Model 94AE 16 inch Trapper carbine circa 1992
1983 fps -- Savage 99 26 inch rifle circa 1917 - Not a Typo

Note that the longest barrel gave the slowest velocity and even the short 16 inch Winchester trapper model gives faster speeds than the 26 inch Savage 99 rifle, which shows that barrel length is not always the sole indicator of velocities a firearm will generate.

Buffalo Bore always uses stock over-the-counter- firearms that give real world velocities. Other ammunition companies normally use laboratory test barrels which give much higher velocities than stock firearms. We at Buffalo Bore see this long established practice as misleading to the consumer.

This 30-30 loading (Item 28A/20) is safe to use in ANY/ALL 30-30 chambered firearms that are in normal operating condition—no exceptions, no need to “double check” with us.

See the rest of the press release here:

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=222
 
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