Animal defense: Hollow Points vs Full Metal Jacket

C

cracked91

New member
Recently, I have found myself doing alot of small game hunting in the White Mountains of Arizona. This region has the most dense black bear population in all of AZ. I have seen multiple, (all while driving very quickly through forest roads at early dawn or late dusk) and while most have not stood than me in a standing position, I have seen one or two that I would not want to meet on foot. I generally either have my Ruger P95 or my Taurus PT145 + a rimfire rifle.

My question is, should I be more focused about expansion, or penetration? Lately, I have been partial to the 9mm, and carried 2 15rnd magazines both loaded with 9mm NATO. The ammo is cheap, I am well practiced with it, and feel that I could deliver all 15 rounds into a human sized target from 20 yards just about as fast as I can pull the trigger (I am a point shooter BTW)

Should I rethink my ammo choice? Some people have told me that creating a bigger wound area is more important than hitting vitals when dealing with an attacking animal.

Thoughts? Opinions?

P.S. This thread is about ammo selection, not caliber. I generally choose 9mm over .45 because of capacity, and my personal proficiency and experience with the Ruger. If your going to tell me just to step up to .44 mag, at least give me an ammo type.
 
Bear are a more robustly built animal than humans, so you need better penetration than a typical anti-personnel loading.

Apparently you've seen some of the jillions of bear threads from your comments. So, if I wanted some kind of factory bear loading for 9mm, it would be this:
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_37&products_id=268

That's probably the best penetrating factory round made for the 9mm. It's a full metal jacket flat point with a heavy jacket, 147gr @ 1135fps. That's going to do some damage.
 
Neither will give you a very good chance of surviving. I'd say why but you said it's not up for discussion.

I really, really, really, really hope you don't run into any aggressive bears.
 
I too would lean towards the P95, you could do a lot worse. Like leaving your Magnum in the truck 'cause it's too big or heavy.

I would suggest a solid bullet with the largest meplat that will reliably feed through your gun, jacketed or cast. A load similar to the one from Doubletap would be good, if found to be reliable in your gun. If you reload there are many cast bullets out there to try.

No HP's.
 
The flattest meplat you can get in .45acp with no hollowpoint.

You want to crush and punch deep.

Hollowpoints negate penetration in favor of larger wound cavities. Good tactic if your target is built like a person or a deer. Bad tactic if your target has a foot of fur, muscle and fat to soak up the hollowpoint before reaching vitals.
 
Even on black bears that are no larger than a large man, the anatomy of a quadriped bruin is different enough from that of an erect biped that JHP's typically will not yield sufficient penetration. In most semi-automatic calibers, a non-expanding FMJ or hardcast lead bullet is your best bet. Some of the larger magnum revolvers might give adequate penetration with JSP's, but I'd probably still opt for a hardcast.
 
If the bear wants to it can cover 20yards faster than you can accurately get off 15 rounds into a softball size target thats moving up and down. I'd want something that can do the job with the fewest shots because you may only get one.
 
Hey Erich, where are you? This topic is right up your alley, right down to the black bear scat in the canyon behind your house.

Cordially, Jack
 
Black bears don't like a big fight for their meal, so if you appear big or a big hassle to eat.. normally they will leave you alone.

Take along someone who can't outrun you, just in case that doesn't work.

I would not bet on a 9mm, no matter what ammo I had in it. I'ld go a minimum of a heavy .357 and above... or a good rifle. Personally, I want a 30-30 rifle or better in my hands if it's attacking.
 
I've only seen bears twice and as it happens, they had cubs both times. But I didn't get that close. I seriously doubt that I could run faster than much of anything, especially a wild animal, so there could be a problem someday. But I'm in my sixties and if the law of averages holds, it should be 30 years before I see another one. But I saw a buck this morning on the street where I live in the suburbs and that makes the second time that happened, too.

Old time African style big game hunters sometimes wrote about last ditch defence against dangerous animals but it's been years since I've seen any such stuff. They didn't seem to worry too much about the caliber but they also never suggested hollowpoints. They were around but weren't at all common. I suspect that penetration was what they were after, which is why the .38 ACP and .38 Super were supposed to be popular among big game hunters. Of course that may have been Colt hyperbole.

One thing sticks in my mind, however. There have been many threads about defending yourself against wild animals, nearly always bears. They are all interesting but there's usually little mention of just when you start shooting. Not whether or not but when. I'm sure some would start shooting as soon as you spot the animal. Elmer Keith would have. But at least one of these old writers mentioned shooting at virtual contact range. Me, I'm not that cool. At that range you might be better off with a boar spear.

Just when would you start shooting?
 
In or about Anchorage there are several Moose/ Vehicle encounters.

A lot of the moose, after being hit need to put down. In my 20 year in LE I was involved in several moose shooting. I found out of a revolver (I used a Model 28 Smith, 357) that LSWCs worked best.

A few years ago, I bought a Buffalo (excess from Custer State Park) to eat. I also put it down with the same Model 28, using LSWCs.

IMG_NEW.jpg
 
Just when would you start shooting?
Click to expand...

Bears make many body motions. That's how they communicate, we just don't understand. A bear that is just sitting and looking at you is no threat, don't shoot. A bear that is standing up may just be trying for a better look and is not an immediate threat, don't shoot. A bear that is chomping its teeth (clack clack clack) is warning you to leave. Typically a mother with cubs on HER side away from you. Facing her, back away fairly quickly but NOT FAST or you may trigger a charge. Still, not a direct threat as long as you leave, don't shoot. A bear may be afraid of you and will charge to within 30' then stop. Bluff charge (scary), but you can back away. Maybe shoot, but try to back away with the threat covered in the sites!

When the bear is wagging its head back and forth or doing a full body wag with all 4 paws on the ground --> that's the BAD sign. The bear is deciding if you are good to eat or not and is working up the courage to kill you. You are not a threat to it, it is not afraid of you and it is hungry. If the bear then starts to sidle up to you with it's head low, a bit to the side and ears back --> time to unload the mag! The bear may also just go from the full body wag to a full speed charge --> unload the mag!. Maybe the first one in the dirt in front, but be mentally ready for a charge like a Mac truck on the freeway. A big bear can reach speeds of 30-35 mph in a short short short distance. You'd swear it was instantly going from 0-30, so plan on aiming low. If you chicken out, turn and run --> you'd best hope you already made a kill hit or YOU ARE DEAD. Only way to live is to stand your ground and feed lead into the vitals.

Unlike Grizzly bears, black bears won't stop if you "play dead", they will just start feeding.

A bit long winded, but that's when I would start shooting.
 
Thanks for the answer. Based on my experiences in the woods, you get about five seconds to make up your mind. Come to think of it, that's about all you can count on anywhere, if that.
 
for me and my guns

Little critters: high-speed HP.
Like a 1270fps+ 115/124g 9x19 JHP, or a 1400fps+ 125/140g HP 357 Magnum.

Big biting critters: solid heavy large bullets exiting past 900fps.
Like a 1000fps 200g FMJ/220g LFN 40 S&W (yes), or a 1220fps+ 300g-n-up FN 44 Mag, or a 900fps+ 252g FN 45ACP.


'Course, I'd prefer to talk 'em to boredom, so's they'd just get sick of me and leave.


Big grizzly: 320--340g WFN 44 Magnum at 1300fps+. None of those anywhere near here.
 
If the 9mm is your only choice, my suggestion is a 147 bonded type HP. Two reasons for this. Number one is the 147 bonded hp will hold together and penetrate well while expanding a little. The 9mm is lacking on initial diameter so this is an advantage. Number two is the HP with a sharp edge around the hollow will be less likely to skid off bone like the skull. Most fmj,even flat points, have a rounded edge which promotes feeding. The angle of impact on a bear's skull might be close to 45* causing the less sharp edged bullets to skid along the skull or jaw bone rather than penetrate. Several people have survived bear attacks because the bear had suffered a broken jaw/teeth and was unable to normally bite. I personally know one bowhunter who was treed by a black bear and fired one 9mm 147 HP as the bear clawed it's way up the tree. The bullet entered the forehead low between the eyes and exited the back of the skull. The hunter changed his shorts and walked away never to bowhunt that area again.
 
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