And now, let's purge some more allies -- NOT!

C

cornered rat

Moderator
For a long time, I tought that my paranoid excesses alone were responsible from driving Q away from TFL. Shere's yet another reason for that: she feels that gun owners are by and large either libertarians (whom she views as selfish and short-sighted bastards) or sexist bible-thumpers. She's got very tired of liberal-bashing on TFL, tired of hearing Democrats this and that and poor us white males...

I, personally, do not see how politics can be separated out of the debate. I can see not using the imprecise term "liberal", but overall, not sure how to make TFL palatable to some of our allies. I do find the concept of a pro-gun leftist/liberal/etc. strange, because they support gun ownership but do not acknowledge what those guns are for (ie. they tend to go for self-defense argument more than political importance).

However, we need folks like Q, and I just wonder what can be done to avoid driving away potential and even real allies like her.

------------------
Cornered Rat
ddb.com/RKBA Updated March 20
"Disarm, then past the barbed wire, into the oven and out of the smoke-stack..."
 
"Educate"...I have found that sensible and reasonable discussions with plenty of back-up and statistics will awaken the liberty loving American in some of the most liberal minded people.

The issue of "guns" today should be put into its proper perspective at the beginning of every debate. That is, in order to have become free Americans, we had guns, and in order to remain free Americans today and tomorrow, we "need" guns. Separate the rhetoric about crime prevention from the reality of the actions of those who would take away our firearms. The gun control agenda is nothing more than "civil disarmament". History has given us many examples of this tactic used by ruling elitists, to enslave millions of people. Why can't modern people learn from the past?
 
Dunno what to tell you Rat...seems to me that she has as much dislike for Libertarians and Conservatives as she perceives they have for her core beliefs.

Ask her how she believes the rhetoric would be on a Liberal political forum? Check out the CNN boards....Conservatives and Libertarians take a serious beating there everyday.
The facts are that the majority of Liberals and Democrats do believe that government is supreme and has the right to dictate and regulate our lives and extort our wages. The fact that presently, the government also plays fast and loose with the law and Constitution does not seem to bother them either. They accept and support the Machiavellian actions to achieve certain results.

She is as guilty of stereotyping and "inflammatory labels" as she says Libertarians and Conservatives are...
I consider myself Libertarian...I am neither a "white male", nor a "sexist bible-thumper". In fact, the only label there I find offensive in a person is "sexist"...I like white males, I like Hispanic, Asian, Black and Amerind males. I don't mind bible-thumpers until they try to run my life. I know some personally and they are very fine people.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 
Michelle does not think that Libertarians have a viable alternative to tax-financed roads, cancer research, space exploration, etc.

She feels that, should Libertarians ever get in power, we'd have Dickensian dystopia and bodies of starved poor everywhere. "**** you, I got mine!" is her perception of Libertarians.

She doesn't think they have a viable solution to pollution control or roadbuilding (pay toll every mile?) -- and Libertarians' holier than thou attitude (we have the answers, if you disagree, you're just a damn liberal) bothers her.

She does not feel that taxes are an extortion (social contract, more like) and basically agrees with Dems on everything except for gun control.

My original post was about figuring out how to avoid antagonizing that crowd further. On this board, "god-damned atheists" and "bible thumpers" co-exist with "unborn child murderers" and "sexist fiends against choice"...we have no coice but to overlook other issues if we are to preserve RKBA. However, we seem to exclude pro-gun Democrats and other leftists, I agree that they want RKBA preserved for a different reason than we do, but that is still not good enough reason to drive them away.

Folks, please -- be careful when using all-encompassing labels that do nothing but alienate some TFL members. If you don't have to insult them, please do not. I point so many fence-sitters here that the first impression counts.

------------------
Cornered Rat
ddb.com/RKBA Updated March 20
"Disarm, then past the barbed wire, into the oven and out of the smoke-stack..."
 
Okay, CR. We've been down this road before but I'm willing to try this again.

If a Democrat says let's support cancer research, if I am not a Democrat, that does not mean I am against cancer research.

Next subject. Highways. Gee, golly, yes. Let's have highways. Let's have them where they will do the most people the most good and save lives. If a Democrat wants a highway, and I am not a Democrat, that does not mean that I am against highways.

Now what? How far should we go with this? I truly am sorry if Michelle is offended that I get upset when Democrats want to come into my home, take my possessions, run my schools, educate my children with values that I consider absolutely horrible, and then tell my kids that they should not discuss this with their parents because they are "dinosaurs". (Yes, it happened here, to me and my kids!) But, guess what, I am every bit as angry with the Republicans who do the same things.

I can not handle people screwing with my values any more than Michelle likes people messing with hers.

The issue is gun control. Both the Democrats and the Republicans have a history of increasing their control and restricting our guns! Like Patrick Henry, "I have no way to judge the future but by the past.!" I know crime is not caused by guns any more than garbage is caused by stink! The only reason a government is afraid of an armed populace is that they have something ugly up their sleeve. (Look at your own signature for what I mean) Therefore, for this reason, and the other activities where they seem intent in reducing us to Stalag USA, I have had my fill of them (the Republicans and the Democrats).

On the other hand, to accuse me of advocating "...Dickensian dystopia and bodies of starved poor everywhere. '**** you, I got mine!'" because it "is her perception of Libertarians" is offensive to me. I'll match her hour for hour of volunteer and community service. And I will ask her to support her accusations.

Her vocabulary reflects that she is an intelligent, thinking person. I will fight anyone who says she has no right to her views. But, frankly, she should extend the same privilege to us without misrepresenting our views intentionally and maliciously.

If she thinks conversations about guns and freedom are boring, that's fine with me. My two daughters feel the same way. I have absolutely no problem with that.

If she truly believes the Democrats and/or the Republicans are the answer to all our problems, that's fine with me. I think she would be wrong with such an opinion. If she wants to discuss it, politely, frankly, and in detail, there are a bunch of bright cookies on TFL willing and able to do it.

I refer to the Republicrats as a largely united group, an oligarchy, who by their own bragging, state they believe their job is to create, propagate, and enforce THEIR values on me. ME? I'm offended. If that's what Michelle wants, she knows how to vote.

I would love to see the TFLers discuss her views, but instead, she tells you how wrong WE are and how wrong YOU are for believing what you apparently believe in.

You, more than anyone else I am aware of on TFL have seen the "benefits" of having the government make your decisions for each of their "subjects". Tell the truth, CR, which system do you feel is better?

It's up to you who you want to believe, which views you wish to declare or not declare. But a fence sitter is someone in the middle - not someone deadset against us expressing our views which they misrepresent.
 
Actually, the highway comment comes from the idea that libertarians view taxation as extortion and without taxes, we are limited to private roads. That would mean the poor would be unable to travel, though lack of means to pay the tolls.

She has not seen any first-hand info from LP, and I am not very good at explaining the general position. LP isn't "my" party, merely an ally, so I am not very good at advertising them.

She feels that individuals lack money to do scientific research, and that corporations would keep the advances proprietary. "If a company invents a cure for cancer, and you can't afford it -- that's not freedom, that's unfair!" Seems to me that is the basis of the patent law, among other things.

I, personally, find the idea of me coughing up money at gunpoint to pay for some stranger's treatment more offensive...

As I said, I disagree with Q -- but my original post was about making her and others with what we view as "screwed up values" (and be certain, they return the sentiment!) less unwelcome at TFL.
 
cornered rat, I'll be very honest with you here ... I can't spend too much time being concerned about offending liberals. If Q calls herself one, then I'm sorry, but she chose to join that club.

She may see libertarians 'as selfish and short-sighted bastards', but I see liberals as star-gazing fools who cannot accept human behavior and motivations. If she thinks we need a road, need cancer research, or need anything else for that matter, why does she blithely believe no one will fund it? There seems to be a pretty big demand for gasoline, and what do you know - people pay money for it - lots of money, and that money encourages others to find oil, refine it, and deliver the gasoline to markets. And, the cost of gasoline (like any product or service) serves to help ration its use.

The comment about the cancer cure is really too much. First, like most liberals, she apparently uses the word 'corporation' to mean some terrible force from another planet, sent here to plunder and pillage! For heaven's sake - it's just a form of business entity, formed by many INDIVIDUALS. And, if by their collective investment 'they' discover a cure for cancer, aren't they entitled to a return on their investment of millions of dollars? (notice how liberals never give a damn when those same corporations go broke gambling that they will find a cure!) This is an intellectual gulf that cannot be bridged, IMHO. Any thinking human being that cannot understand this process of investment and return, and the ultimately better world that results from this process, cannot comprehend history, economics and human psychology. Or, to put it another way ... they cannot comprehend freedom.

If Q, or any other liberal for that matter, really is interested in solving the problems of the world, they might want to honestly consider libertarian thought instead of casually dismissing it as egocentric and selfish. Ask her if she ever checked out http://www.cato.org/ or other libertarian sites. To be honest, I doubt she gave it a chance.

It is sad that so many liberals cannot bring themselves to honestly consider libertarian perspectives. Libertarians, in my experience, cannot logically be sexist, homophobic or racist - they believe in freedom, personal responsibility and self-determination for human beings. It seems to me sometimes that liberals are libertarians who have no faith in the 'invisible hand' of the market. And, that's really too bad - because that market is what provides the vast majority of most of their wonderful economic life in America.

Of course, there are those other times when liberals show their fascist stripes, and then they make sure we all know they're going to MAKE us do 'the right thing'. Oh well.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited June 11, 1999).]
 
You might give www.d2a.org a look.

Supposedly this is an organization of Democrats that support the 2nd amendment as being a check against the government's abuse of power. What we have in the white house today is not a Democrat nor a liberal. What we have is a despot.What we have in congress are not Republicans, they are aristocrats. What sits on the bench of federal courts are not judges, they are magistrates

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(!)
 
My, do I have a good comeback for "Libertarians cannot be sexist or racist"! They are against "affirmative action", thorefore they are bigoted...don't laugh, I have heard this argument more than a few times.

I am not saying there isn't a gulf...what I am saying, can we ally monarchist UK and communist USSR to defeat nazi Germany and then deal with the allies of circumstance, or will we end up pushing everyone ideologically impure into the enemy camp?

------------------
Cornered Rat
ddb.com/RKBA Updated March 20
"Disarm, then past the barbed wire, into the oven and out of the smoke-stack..."


[This message has been edited by cornered rat (edited June 11, 1999).]
 
CR, I agree - we don't want to make enemies out of anyone who recognizes the RKBA.

But really ... if someone believes you're racist because you're not in favor of affirmative action! This is really saying, if you won't support my solution, especially a government solution, then you are my enemy, and you're part of the problem. Fine. There's no arguing with someone who so readily and confidently turns to government to solve the woes of mankind. That is another example of a huge philosophical gulf.

If you think about it, that attitude is also simply childish.
 
Rat...

Its not as simple as your UK/USSR analogy...Nazi Germany was a 3rd party.
What we face is Q's political ideology at the National level weakening the whole Bill of Rights, not just the 2ndA.

And as I said earlier....she feels the same about us as she perceives we feel about her beliefs. She has a stereotypic view of Libertarians/Conservatives that she holds fast to and obviously has done no research into the true values.
Put it simply...she wants to play but wants to change the game to her rules.

I'll be brutally honest here...if your comments about her beliefs, opinions and world view are accurate, then she is more a detriment than an asset to our cause. She may enjoy shooting but if a law is made to ban guns she would happily accept it. Its merely a pasttime to her, nothing more. She apparently sincerely believes that Gov't has the right to dictate and regulate our lives....she has accepted vassal status.

------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 
DC, I think you have a point on Q's attitue. She did say she'd comply with any law on abortion or gun control, however onerous, and work to change it through non-violent political means only.

That does mean, as per her words, that the PPK/s I gave her for the second anniversary would get turned in, should the law require it. In view of Dennis' comment on "plastic and wood and metal", I am unhappy at that turn of events.

All I was saying, terms like "gun nut" or "damn liberals" or "Hitler's spawn" are not helping. My hope would be to have people like Q (but less entrenched in their faith in the just government) stick around long enough to see why RKBA is just a small part of a larger values/rights/responsibilitie set. As things are now, we are scaring them away without a chance to "convert".

------------------
Cornered Rat, recently with the NRA
ddb.com/RKBA Updated March 20
"Disarm, then past the barbed wire, into the oven and out of the smoke-stack..."
 
CR,
Sorry, my friend. You do NOT, "...have a good comeback..." To say that Libertarians ...are against 'affirmative action', thorefore they are bigoted..." is truly unimaginative.

Affirmative action took on the notion of "quotas" the REQUIREMENT to hire someone because of their minority status. Now THAT is bigotry!

If a college must turn away a better qualified student, or a business must turn away a better qualified applicant because that applicant is NOT a minority needed to fill a government-mandated "quota", some people call it "reverse discrimination".

But discrimination is discrimination whether it is "for" or "against" any group of people - and that, my friend, is bigotry.

The best affirmative action program considers people because of their qualifications - not because of their skin color, gender, ethnic group, religious affiliation (or lack of affiliation), etc.

In all fairness, I would suggest that bigotry and other forms of philosophical myopia are not unique to any one political party in our country - but:
- Loving freedom and independence does not make a person a bigot;
- Membership in a major political party does not make a person a bigot;
- Frustration or jealousy of another person does not make either person a bigot;
anymore than being a Russian makes a person a Communist. (Nice touch, huh?)

-------
I love my wife and three daughters and would fight to ensure they are given a fair break. I would not help them get ahead because they lack a penis! So don't get into this "sexist" topic, it is an invalid red herring.

I've done CPR on just about every description of human critter - so don't call me a "racist" simply because I am not a blind follower of the oligarchy.

My Republican Party deserted me, and the Republicans and Democrats have become so similar that they are merely two divisions of the same political movement, therefore the term "oligarchy" is applicable. As an obvious outsider (by the treatment they render me) I am forced to become a Libertarian. I don't agree with every plank in their platform - but such accusations as those so far offered are not quite factual. Perhaps further explanations would be in order.

I also believe the Second Amendment means what it says and I am a life member of the NRA. However, I have not been hunting for years; the only Bambi I have killed committed suicide on the front of my sedan. ("sedan"! I don't have a truck!) I very, very seldom wear flannel shirts and wear suspenders only to support my legally-carried handgun concealed under my sport/suit coat. I never chew tobacco or even grass. My home has running water and indoor plumbing. My wife is a professional, self-employed RMT with her own practice. I have a college degree (and nearly all of a second degree) and can document more than 3,000 hours public service as an EMT. None of my three girls became pregnant in their teen-age years and we don't marry our relatives or engage in incest.

Hopefully that helps refute the image that NRA members and Libertarians seem to have in the eyes of some of the public and will save some time if we continue this discussion.

Next allegation?

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited June 11, 1999).]
 
Damn it Rat...

You are all over the map on this. We've gone from:
"She's got very tired of liberal-bashing on
TFL, tired of hearing Democrats this and that and poor us white
males..."

To:
"gun nut" or "damn liberals" or "Hitler's
spawn"

While she believes the majority of gunowners are:
"either
libertarians (whom she views as selfish and short-sighted bastards)
or sexist bible-thumpers"

She wants to operate under a double standard, and that is patently ludicrous. The liberals and Democrats do do what we have been saying and they ARE responsible. She wants to deny/ignore fact because of her Liberal angst/guilty conscience and she knows it.

------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 
Just to clarify...
<h2>The comment about affirmative action was a quote, not my opinions!</h2>

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Cornered Rat, recently with the NRA
ddb.com/RKBA Updated March 20
"Disarm, then past the barbed wire, into the oven and out of the smoke-stack..."
 
One does not further the dialog by abstaining. Skrew the labels and rhetoric, jump and and have at. We all might learn something from each other.

I am fortunate to have friends of all colors, stripes, and persuasions (BTW, I'm often of the 'liberal' position in a lot of discussions, if you must label). We all delight in running each other up and down the walls, sometimes fairly brutally, but at the end, we have a beer or cup of tea. It makes you do your homework and substantiate your views, no vapid Rosies here. And I second the notion that there are a lot of good minds and opinions here, and this is the most civil bunch of forums I've found.

Tell the lady to quit being so thin skinned and jump in and bite a few butts. She's obviously smart and articulate and we need her .02, too. M2
 
cr, it seems to me that Q is operating from a position of ignorance in regards to libertarian/free market solutions to the problem areas she raised. We could go on here correcting her misapprehensions at length, but I think she would be better served by researching these herself. After all, why listen to a bunch of "short-sighted bastards"?

I recommend www.self-gov.org and their newsletter with its "Short Answers to Tough Questions" section by Dr. Ruwart. Doc Ruwart nails questions like the publicly owned vs privately owned roads weekly. Also check out The Libertarian at www.infomagic.com/liberty/vinyard.htm , and The Libertarian Enterprise at www.webleyweb.com/tle /

Education works. I wasn't always a short-sighted bastard, oops, libertarian.

BTW, taxation is theft. If a guy with a gun comes to force you to give him your money, it doesn't matter if he's wearing a uniform.

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"All I ask is equal freedom. When it is denied, as it always is, I take it anyhow."
 
I am not only Libertarian but am the third generation of a libertarian family. My father (the selfish and short sighted bastard) was a business owner. Happened to be a white male Bible thumper too. Well, it just happens that 80 percent of the employees that he hired in a thirty five year period were black male ex-convicts. He attempted to help them learn the skills needed to be a productive member of the community. Simple skills: balancing a checkbook, setting and keeping a budget, establishing and maintaining credit, etc. As well as learning valuable employment skills. He taught these young men welding, plumbing, simple carpentry, electronics and small appliance repair. Many of them stole from him. He would sadly press charges and send them back to prison. Then he would immediately go out and hire another ex-convict and try one more time. The people that he succeeded in helping were the prizes for him. I had one for supper the other night. The man has a house, vehicles, and a very good job today. He has not had any run in with the law for more than a minor traffic ticket in thirty years. He owes all he has to a selfish and shortsighted Bible thumper. He and others like him are my father's legacy to his community.

I, personally, give of my professional time as a nurse to volunteer work with those "less fortunate." Last year, my volunteer work, if done in a formal work setting, would have grossed me about thirty thousand dollars. What has Michelle done lately with her caring and compassion? Voted for more government to cure the problem? Government is the problem.

Not supporting affirmative action is racist, huh? The very basic assumption of affirmative action is racist. The assumption that blacks cannot compete on a level playing field with whites. In 1948, the white illegitimacy rate was 12%. The black illegitimacy rate was 10%. Then the liberals, in the 60's, succeeded in passing the payment of welfare to families with dependent children. But only if it was a one parent family. The result? The destruction of the black family. The black illegitimacy rate today is 52% and the white illegitimacy rate is 24%. You get what you pay for. So was this a sincere effort to help the needy or a cynical attempt to destroy the black people. You decide. As a Libertarian, I do not say "F**k you, I've got mine." I just say that the legitimate functions of government do not encompass charity or social welfare. These are functions of churches, charities, and private aid organizations.

Review the amazing inventions of Nikolai Tesla and Thomas Edison. The plethora of everyday items that came about throught the seminal theories of Albert Einstein. None of them had government support. Check the list of Nobel Prize winners. The number who had no governmental support will suprise you.

Check on the space enthusiasts, see how many think that the government involvement in space has stifled development.

It is simple for the intellectually and physically lazy to say "let the government do it." Truly caring people are willing to get involved and solve problems by banding together with like minded individuals in a non-coercive manner to solve problems. Of course, when 60% of their income goes to various taxes and fees, it severely limits their ability to do so.
 
Michelle's mind is made. So is mine, mostly, although she hopes that visiting a psychiatrist would make me into a non-paranoid compassionate sane person. She is not the only one of my friends who would like to help me get over the dangerous preoccupation with guns and politics.
At this point, we have two people arguing faith issues. I am just going to try ignoring the differences while thinking about the situation as a whole.

Interestingly, she comes from a mostly Italian family, which makes her conversation style _with friends or me_ quite brisk. I try to avoid arguments at this point...



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Cornered Rat, recently with the NRA
ddb.com/RKBA Updated March 20
"Disarm, then past the barbed wire, into the oven and out of the smoke-stack..."
 
Spartacus wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I had one for supper the other night.[/quote]

BBQ'd? or cajun spiced?

Did you have him with ocra and grits as side dishes?

MMMmmmmmm...MMmmmmmmm...!

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John/az

"Just because something is popular, does not make it right."

www.countdown9199.com
 
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