An observation relative to Federal vs. Winchester primers.

dahermit

New member
Note: Before anyone gets their pantaloonie in a bunch, the loads I mention are at or above suggesting starting loads in Lyman's 49 Edition for a 120-grain cast bullet.


My daily shooting is a practice session of 72 rounds (minimum) of .38 Special, double-action at steel targets set at fifty feet using an older model K38 with a six-inch barrel. That gun and the loads I use in it are only for the purpose of shooting steel targets...nothing else. The focus of my practice is to increase the speed at which I can knock over the targets. Therefore, in seeking any and every advantage possible, I use a very light bullet (Lee, home cast, 121 grain 2R), combined with the smallest/lightest powder charge possible while still getting reliable ignition.

Over the years I have found that if I use 1.8 of Bullseye under that Lee 121 grain bullet and a Federal primer, I get exactly what I am looking for...minimal recoil but 100% uniform ignition. However, because of the relative scarcity of Federal primers, I have been looking for an equivalent load using Winchester primers. Therein lies the problem. I have found that 2.8 of Bullseye is not reliably ignited by Winchester primers. I tried 3.0, 3.2 and still experienced squibs (they leave the barrel, but very light reports on a few in inch batch of 72 rounds). I tried Winchester 231 with 3.4, and 3.6 grains and the Winchester primers and still experienced squibs. Reasoning that I need a still bulkier powder to take up more room in the .38 Special cases, I tried Unique. 4.0 grains of Unique (Winchester primers, still), produced some squibs. In each case, increasing the powder charge beyond what I have already tried, began to increase the recoil of the rounds that did seem to ignite the powder completely so it was beginning to be counterproductive for my purpose.

I was quite happy with my standard load of 2.8 and the Lee 121 cast bullet and Federal primers, but the seemingly chronic scarcity of Federal primers will likely be an ongoing problem. I was hoping to find a comparable load using Winchester primers, but that does not seem to be going to happen. I have considered using Winchester Magnum Small Pistol primers, but although they are a cataloged item, I have never seen any on the gun store shelves. Likewise, I have no interest in trying CCI primers inasmuch as my K38 is highly tuned with a very light trigger pull. CCI primers have a reputation for needing more force to ignite, so I have ruled them out.

This was just an observation...make of it what you will. My purpose in posting it is that while I have frequently seen posts about using magnum primers to ignite specific difficult-to-ignite powders in magnum loads, I have never seen any posts about using a "hot" (magnum) primer to ignite relatively "easy" to ignite powders in a very low density load and was surprised at the difference between Federal and Winchester standard small pistol primers.

Addendum: I also tried Titegoup at one point and had similar results (squibs), so Winchester primers do not ignite that powder when in low-density loadings either.
 
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The only stuck bullet I have produced was from loading a 125 gr bullet with powder charge and OAL same as 158. If you get the powder up against the bullet, it is a LOONG way for the primer flash to travel and it didn't make it that time.
I salvaged the rest of the batch by reseating the bullet deeply. They shot fine.
 
The only stuck bullet I have produced was from loading a 125 gr bullet with powder charge and OAL same as 158. If you get the powder up against the bullet, it is a LOONG way for the primer flash to travel and it didn't make it that time.
I salvaged the rest of the batch by reseating the bullet deeply. They shot fine.
Deep-seating (deeper) my Lee 121 2R bullets is not really an option...the bullet was chosen for its round nose to use in speed loaders. Nevertheless, I am well aware that the largely unfilled volume of the loaded round effects ignition...that is likely why they flush-seated 148-grain wadcutters over 2.7 grains of Bullseye that was so popular back in the offhand pistol days.
 
That's quite a discrepancies between the brands. I wonder if you got a hold of a bad batch of Winchester primers?

I'm not familiar with that bullet... Is it possible to put a heavier crimp on it to allow for the pressure to build a little bit more?
 
Back in the day, reloaders often filled the cases with some kind of filler when using low powder volume loads.
Could be worth a try.
I had success with plain ole' toilet paper.
It kept the powder down near the primer hole, where it belonged and burned up well.
Just be sure to only try one test round at a time to see.
P.S.
Have you ever tried lower volume cases instead of the .38 spl?
Like the S&W .38 for example.
Just a thought.
 
That's quite a discrepancies between the brands. I wonder if you got a hold of a bad batch of Winchester primers?
NO, several different 1000 count cartons, different lot numbers. At 72 rounds a day, it only takes two weeks to go through 1000 primers...I have gone through many different batches of Winchester primers.

I'm not familiar with that bullet... Is it possible to put a heavier crimp on it to allow for the pressure to build a little bit more?
It is a bullet intended primarily for the 9MM, with no crimp groove (but sized to .357). I crimp it as high (close to the nose), as possible relative to the ogive of the bullet. I use a Lee Factory Crimp Die to crimp (with that carbide post-sizing ring to assure that the rounds will fit easily in the chambers). I use assorted brass and have found a significant difference in the wall thicknesses at the mouth. I suspect that adjusting for a heavier crimp would result in overworking the brass and even more inconsistent crimps.
 
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Back in the day, reloaders often filled the cases with some kind of filler when using low powder volume loads.
Dillon 550b, every day, seven days a week...adding a filler would not likely be consistent with the rapid production of the Dillon that I have become accustomed.

Have you ever tried lower volume cases instead of the .38 spl?
Like the S&W .38 for example.
I don't own any .38 S&W cases and would be reluctant to mess with them for two reasons. Firstly, the .38S&W has a nominal rim thickness of .055 whereas the .38 Spl. has a nominal rim thickness of .058...that three thousandths could make a difference in the reliability due to the firing pin strike...my K38 is a little touchy about light strikes anyway. Secondly, I have found that in the case of my .357 Magnums, when using .38 Special brass, despite others claiming to the contrary, accuracy falls off. My shooting has to do with hitting steel bowling pins and steel plates at fifty feet...I do not want to give up any accuracy.
 
How about seating the bullet submerged in the case to reduce airspace. Like the old .38-44 S&W Target. Obviously it isn't going to speed load very well.

.38 S&W is larger O.D. than Special. Might chamber, might not.

A lot of ICORE shooters use .38 Long or even Short Colt cases for easy loading, unloading, and better powder confinement.
 
I would not rule them out, try CCI, Remington (available in our area) or even the foreign ones.

Making assumption on no data other than internet rumor is a poor way to go about it.
 
I would not rule them out, try CCI, Remington (available in our area) or even the foreign ones.
Making assumption on no data other than internet rumor is a poor way to go about it.
I have to consider cost (my time) as to possible benefit. Do I really want to experiment with primers other than Winchester...how much time do I want to invest? I would not buy less than 1000 primers. I have to ask myself if they turn out to be no better than Winchester, do I want a 1000 or so sitting on my shelf? Also, I know that CCI's are more difficult to get to fire inasmuch as I have experimented with them and my highly tuned revolvers and found them way too hard for my light mainsprings. So the question is: Is it worth it (time it takes to experiment), to try other primers? Remember that in my original post, I was not asking for any particular remedy or suggestion, I was just making an observation for what it was worth.
 
You could trim some 38 spl down to a length of .900 (38 super length) It may help and solve your problem. Trimming the 38's any shorter will get to a point where the brass is to thick to be sized and crimped. Just my .02
 
You might consider 700X. I used a couple of grains to fire lap a 44 Mag. I believe I used Winchester primers and do recall having a squib or two at 1.7 grains. I was seating the bullets deep however, which may have reduced squib loads considerably. One down side was that my powder dispenser did not throw 700X very well.
 
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"Likewise, I have no interest in trying CCI primers inasmuch as my K38 is highly tuned with a very light trigger pull. CCI primers have a reputation for needing more force to ignite, so I have ruled them out."

I was thinking along the line of bad primers but when I saw this I got to thinking. Could the primer cups on the Winchester's be borderline too tough? That is most work OK but some barely cut it being slightly tougher? The fact that it has happened with several different lots leads me to believe this may be the cause.
I have an S&W M27 that is very highly tuned but so far I haven't had any problems regarding the primers (WLR).
Paul B.
 
What you said was CCI has a reputation, not that you have tested them.

So call me argumentative.

The other aspect is you now say you minimum requirement is 1000 primers.

That too is artificial. They sell in boxes of 100 and that's not that much investment.

While you are boxered yourself into a corner by building the walls, I don't think its unreasonable for anyone else that might be interested in the topic to not boxer themselves into the same corner.


I assume the post is to discuss the issue. Note that I did not express any upset about the load levels as that was covered and you did it informed as well as informed the readers of same.

I am a technician/mechanic. Working on solutions is what I do and am. If you don't want to explore the options?

At least one inquiring mind would like to know.
 
I am a technician/mechanic. Working on solutions is what I do and am. If you don't want to explore the options?
Most options were obvious to me before I posted so I was not looking for answers as much as I thought someone may want to know what I had run into in regard to the ignition characteristics of Federal vs. Winchester primers relative to low-powder density loads. If you wish to explore a solution to a question I have not asked and spend your time, effort, go right ahead.
 
My daily shooting is a practice session of 72 rounds (minimum) of .38 Special, double-action at steel targets set at fifty feet using an older model K38 with a six-inch barrel

I have not had any ignition problems with Winchester small pistol primers. They ignite probably and are accurate.


S&W M638-3 Airweight Bodyguard

148 LWC Valiant 2.7 grs Bullseye thrown Mixed Brass WSP
18-Mar-07 T = 52 °F little high

Ave Vel = 611.6
Std Dev = 22.04
ES = 75.92
High = 648.1
Low = 572.2
N = 25



I am going to offer two possible problems. If you are not fully seating your primers, then you could be having examples of incomplete or inadequate ignition. Maybe your WSP have a slightly harder or wider cup and you are not fully seating the primer. But, I don't believe this is your problem.

Based on your comment that you are using a K38, I am of the opinion that you need to do some maintenance on the pistol . K38 production started 1947 and ended in 1957. It is about time to change the mainspring. I had squibs with a weak mainspring in a M586, the pistol had been fired around 60,000 rounds with 38 Specials primed with Federal primers. Federal primers are the most sensitive primer and the market and will completely ignite with weak hammer blows that cause ignition problems with other primers. I once posted pictures of what looked to be well hit primers of ammunition that jammed a bullet in the barrel forcing cone, but not up the barrel. A change of mainspring fixed everything. I expect right now you are going into denial. Everything you have been taught is that a primer is a primer and they all go off with the same energy input. This is not so. And, given a weak firing pin hit, primers don't give the same energy out put as a primer hit with a strong firing pin strike. This will result in partial powder ignition. So, before you go into permanent denial, because your primers look fine, how about changing the mainspring and shoot the same load and see what happens?

From what I can find, the K38 is a K frame revolver and later mainsprings should interchange. Go buy a new mainspring first. Then tell us what happened.
 
I use Remington 1-1/2 SPP for 9mm and they are fantastic. They feed excellently in my 550B as well.

They are pretty soft. Remington says they are not for magnums or even the 40 S&W due to the thinness of the cup.

Might be the answer until the Federals come back around.
 
I expect right now you are going into denial.
The only thing I am in denial about is how a post that clearly states "...an observation..." and "...for what it is worth..." gets interpreted as a question seeking answers.
 
dahermit wrote:
Over the years I have found that if I use 1.8 of Bullseye under that Lee 121 grain bullet and a Federal primer, ... I have found that 2.8 of Bullseye is not reliably ignited by Winchester primers.
...
I was quite happy with my standard load of 2.8 and ... Federal primers,

Can I assume the first mention of 1.8 grains of Bullseye is a typo?

If so, then I can say that I have - as part of developing heavier loads - started out with light loads of Hi-Skor 700X, Hi-Skor 800X, Bullseye, Red Dot, Green Dot, Blue Dot, 2400 and HP-38 all over Winchester Small Pistol primers and I have never experienced a failure of the primer to ignite or failure of the primer to adequately ignite the powder.

Green Dot did produce some wildly inconsistent loads, but I attributed that to the fact the Green Dot was 30 years old and not the primer.

Of all the cartridges I load 38 Special is the one that scares me the most. This is because the powder charges are generally so tiny that a double (or in some cases even a triple) charge could escape notice. This means that with tiny charges, if the muzzle is pointed down before the pistol is fired, the powder will all be up against the bullet and may not burn efficiently. On some 800X loads, intentionally pointing the muzzle to the ground and then bringing the pistol level and shooting resulted in approximately 200 fps lower velocity than when the muzzle was pointed upwards before being leveled and shot.

Since I have never had a WSP primer fail to properly ignite my 38 Special loads, I don't have a comparable experience, but the velocity difference I experienced based on how the pistol was pointed before being shot does seem to be a factor that you might want to check and eliminate as a contributor to your problem.
 
disseminator wrote:
I use Remington 1-1/2 SPP for 9mm and they are fantastic.

I had only used Remington 1-1/2 on 25 ACP. I had always had a nagging feeling that if they were soft enough to work in my RG-25 pistol, they were probably too fragile for anything much more powerful. Thanks for the confirmation that they can be used in 9mm.
 
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