An honest debate on why our carry cartridge needs power

[Scattergun Bob]

Hi Dave, been waiting for you to wade in on this one

Dave, one of the ideas that I miss reading about is the idea of confidence. I "think" that is what 3 gun and others are making reference to. As a "old" trainer who is no longer "in the know" i stressed gaining confidence in whatever weapon was at hand. I strongly feel that this little used word makes a great difference on the battlefield. I understand how much of a leap of faith it is to believe that a 25ACP can end the gunfight as well as a .40 S&W. However, as you point out it is the history and it is hard to dispute.

3GUN, I am the last person in the world that will tell you to carry something other than what you choose. In the final result NO ONE will be there to extract your ASS from a bad situation even if their advise caused you harm. That said, everyone gets to decide BEFORE they leave the house what flavor of caliber they will take with them this day. I value your opinion, and you read my reply to you earlier in this melee. Good Luck and thanks for the warning.


Glenn E. Meyer glad to see your watching Oprah, from your history and posts I think it is a better past time for you than this forum! I have been in the personal defense business since 1969 and I still learn something new with each thread, with this one I learned to always log in, since you are on my ignore button and that way I don't have to read your drivel.

Good Luck & Be Safe

 

[c4v3man]

Robbery's totaled 338,100 in 2005. 42 percent were armed with a firearm.

Aggravated Assault's totaled 720,115 in 05. 21 percent used firearms.

Both of the above groups had over 60 percent of attackers armed with some type of weapon.

That means we have a 1 in 280 chance of being a victim and a 1 in 933 chance of being a victim to someone armed with a firearm.

Am I the only one who sees a problem with these statistics? It's actually 27.7% of these crimes are committed with a firearm. That changes the dynamics of this discussion quite a bit IMO.


I carry a 380 to work, and a 45 on the weekends. I'm proficient in both, however I'm not as fast drawing from my pocket carry 380 as I am from my IWB 45. I carry as much gun as I can, but I can't always carry as big as I want.

 

[c4v3man]

Let me also add that these statistics are annual, not extrapolated over a lifetime either. So while there is a 1 in 280 (not my number) chance of you becoming a victim THIS YEAR, your chances only increase through the years (or so I would imagine).

I didn't look at the report, I'm only working off the numbers given by the original poster.

 

[Hawg]

Hawg, Your ears will be damaged by that 45 without a doubt.

My ears are already damaged but the .45 won't hurt nearly as much as the .357 or .44 mag.

 

[Deaf Smith]

The only reason to carry a more powerful weapon, presuming you can conceal it and control it while shooting fast with one hand if need be, is that you will actually have to fire it and stop someone with it!

As long as you don't have to fire it, well any old gun will do. But...

While all handgun cartridges will kill, some TEND to stop the attacker better than others. It's well known from such as Ayoob that, all other things equal, then the more powerful rounds tend to stop attackers better. This is modified by such as bullet construction (not all JHPs are equal you might say.) A poorly constructed .45 bullet might not work as well as a well constructed .380 ACP!

Do any of them stop attackers 100 percent of the time? No. Even the .44 magnum has failed.

Do any of then stop attacks zero percent of the time? No. Even the .25 ACP as dropped some right there.

But, as you go up the scale in power, they do tend to be more sucessful. That's just a fact. And that is why you see LEO organizations go from 9mm or .40 S&W or .357 Sig or .45 ACP & GAP. Some prefer the 9mm, others the .40, others the .45. Each has it's assets and each it's liabilities. None are perfect, but all, if talking about actually using it (as in shooting someone with it), are more sucessful than the .25 or .22 lr!

What is more, when you carry a weapon, there is more than just the cartrige to think about (weapon platforms that is.) But that's another thread!

 

[.300H&H]

Jesse James could defend himself quite well with a single action revolver.

James Bond did quite well with his .25acp and his .380acp.

Tactics and Practice and Confidence...are most important.

If I'm carrying only a mousegun, my tactics are going to be different than when I carry a .357mag. Likewise my tactics are going to be different if I'm carrying a high capacity 9mm instead of a 5-shot .38. A person using a single-action revolver<if he/she knows how to use it well>can get off a 1st shot faster than someone using a double-action revolver or a semiauto.
Blackbeard the Pirate with a flintlock has a tactical advantage over Barney Fife with a double-action revolver.

 

[cyprian]

threegun...

That's all reet

 

[threegun]

300, Please list the tactics that will makeup for the 22/25's limitations in power. I'm gonna guess from your past posts that its 7 fast shots to the torso. I can see it now BG approaches begins to jerk a pistol from his waist. I respond by pulling my puny pistol. BG begins to bob and weave and cant his body while launching bullets wildly. I fire 7 fast shots which all hit his torso. Never mind the pressure. Never mind the movement (which isn't predictable).

We know movement is likely. We know hits are difficult to get under the duress of a life and death struggle (low hit ratio's in actual shoot outs). We know that 22/25's lack sufficient penetration to reliably penetrate at the different angles we are likely to encounter much less if bone is contacted.

But look at the bright side its not likely that any of you will ever find out these limitations......just ask DA. I guess that alone makes them "adequate".

 

[threegun]

How are your tactics going to be different for the 38 snubby vs the hi-cap 9mm?

 

[Deaf Smith]

Jesse James could defend himself quite well with a single action revolver.

James Bond did quite well with his .25acp and his .380acp.

Jesse's attackers ALL had SSA to. That's how.

James Bond? Bond's a BS mythology weenie actor that never was. That's how he kocks them dead.

How are your tactics going to be different for the 38 snubby vs the hi-cap 9mm?

You have more rounds to play with. You can fire three or four rounds and not worry about reloading. That's one of the real advantages of any simi-auto, not just HC 9s.

Tactics to make up for the .22 & .25s lack of power? It's kind of like the tactics need to make up for being smaller and weaker.

Yes there are cases where those with smaller weapons have prevailed. There are cases where people with larger weapons have failed. But like they say, "the race is not always to the faster nor the stronger, but that's the way to bet".

 

[nate45]

Today on Oprah:

You get a 38
and
You get a 38
and
You get a 38
and
You get a 38
and
You get a 38
and
You get a 38

Thats the solution! Lets all get .38 Special snub-noses and carry 158 grain lead round nose ammo. Then the caliber war will be over. As far as 'stopping power' goes don't worry, I saw an episode of Hawaii 5-0 once where McGarret shot down a helicopter with his! How much more power do you need.

 

[Hard Ball]

"Winston Churchill was his, when it got down to the bottom line, own bodyguard".

He carrie a 7.62mm Military Mauser when he went to war, He wrote that it was the best weapon in the world and that he lilled 5 men for certain with it..

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

"the race is not always to the faster nor the stronger, but that's the way to bet".


"the jockey with no horse usually is left in the horsepoop".

That's the point, isn't it. That if you only have a lesser caliber (for whatever reason), it can be useful. Otherwise, we repeat oursleves.

Scattergun - since you ignore me - you won't see me say that you contribute little but hot air.

As far as saying the same old thing - I imagine it has some utility but it just seems like a family fight between a long married and hateful couple, rehashing the same business till they pass on.

I was dead serious that we are just saying the same arguments.

1. The most powerful, reliable gun that you can actually and practically carry/shoot is best
2. From what we know, in the very large majority of defense gun usages - caliber doesn't seem to make a difference
3. Because of #2, it would be not reasonable to carry a lesser gun as compared to NO gun.

The quoted stats that 3G used to start the thread really doesn't impact the analysis.

 

[David Armstrong]

It does if they are shooting while retreating and your hits penetrate well at the different angles you may encounter by a moving bad guy.

If the BG is running away you don't need to keep shooting at him, IMO. Hunker down and stay safe.

Unfortunately history isn't going to smash the bad guys bones or penetrate deeply for me when Mr Murphy sees to it that I get the long shot.

Sigh. Once again simple logic just goes whizzing by. Since you seem to have missed the point, history indicates that you don't need to do that stuff. As for Mr. Murphy, you have chosen to compromise what you carry, why do you think it OK for you to now criticize how others compromise in what they carry?

And as I have also pointed out many times I'm not for bigger is better in the traditional debate.

Strange. Let's see now...."The same guys who tout how they would bring a rifle to a gunfight and not a handgun refuse to admit that bigger is better. Thats hypocritical thinking in my book." Looks like you are having a hard time figuring out just what it is you believe. One post you are all for bigger is better. Next post you are not for bigger is better. Sort of hypocritical??

I'm simply saying that the caliber should be big enough to consistently do what needs to be done to force compliance by a bad guy under gun fight dynamics.

Everybody knows what you are saying. We are simply pointing out that what you say is contradicted by the reality of gunfights. You are mandating a performance parameter that is virtually irrelevant in the conventional CCW environment. Very few BG need to be forced into compliance. They do it anyway!

One of the reasons is power and the ability to do what needs to be done to stop a threat.

Those are two reasons. For me it is simple, and it is one reason--it improves my chances to get rounds on the BG. Again, caliber is fairly irrelevant.

The shortest list in the world would be that of folks who would chose the 22 or 25 if a shootout was eminent.

Well, we might disagree. As we have seen here, I think that short list would be folks who would choose any handgun if a shootout was imminent. You don't carry a CCW handgun because you think a shootout is imminent, so that entire line of thought is rather silly.

You keep justifying puny and I'll keep debating against it.

You can debate all you want, but until you can come up with some reasons to explain why we should ignore the history of success it is sort of like arguing that birds cannot fly.

Because David in the end even with all your stats indicating just how adequate the puny calibers are, even you will choose bigger if a shoot out was eminent. For me that speaks volumes.

For you to continually have to resort to a situation where few folks would pick ANY handgun at all in order to justify your selection of handgun speaks volumes also.

Something that the puny ones simply cannot reliably do.

And which they apparently do not need to do. That is your main problem on this issue.

Dave, one of the ideas that I miss reading about is the idea of confidence.

I think I addressed that in the other thread, or at least tried to do so. And I agree, confidence is important. Some people put confidence in their tools, some have confidence in themselves.

However, as you point out it is the history and it is hard to dispute.

You would think so, yet so many regularly try to argue against the lessons of history. This is only one of those areas.

We know movement is likely. We know hits are difficult to get under the duress of a life and death struggle (low hit ratio's in actual shoot outs). We know that 22/25's lack sufficient penetration to reliably penetrate at the different angles we are likely to encounter much less if bone is contacted.

And we also know that doesn't seem to matter much to the success of a DGU incident. We know you usually don't have to get a hit. We know that any hit, with any caliber, usually stops the incident. We know that sufficient penetration usually has no impact on the BG stopping. Strange that you keep ignoring all those other "we knows".

 

[JohnKSa]

If the BG is running away you don't need to keep shooting at him, IMO.

Not always true. A person can retreat to cover and may do so while firing or not firing. If the BG is TRULY exiting the situation then you don't need to keep shooting. If it seems likely that he's just looking for a better vantage point from which to shoot back then that's a different story.

Strange. Let's see now...."The same guys who tout how they would bring a rifle to a gunfight and not a handgun refuse to admit that bigger is better.

There is no contradiction.

YES, a rifle is more powerful than a handgun. So much so that it is very likely to make a practical difference in stopping ability.

In general, particularly if one compares performance within the service pistol class, there is little practical difference in stopping ability. That's exactly why this debate rages on.

And we also know that doesn't seem to matter much to the success of a DGU incident. We know you usually don't have to get a hit. We know that any hit, with any caliber, usually stops the incident. We know that sufficient penetration usually has no impact on the BG stopping.

This is all exactly correct. Handgun caliber makes a difference in only a very small percentage of self-defense gun uses for the following reasons.

1. The gun is only rarely fired.
2. If the gun is fired most give up regardless of whether they're hit or not and regardless of the severity of the wound.

It's a very rare case where a defender is required to actually "break down" an attacker by physically damaging him with bullets to the point that he's completely unable to continue the attack.

 

[Scattergun Bob]

Glenn E. Meyer

Damm, I hate it when I make the same mistake twice!

I would have thought the CORRECT insult would go something like " waisted or useless bytes" since "thank God" I don't have to be bored by your ramblings in person. I think that psychologists like yourself cornered the market in "hot air" many years ago!

 

[agtman]

Just get something in 10mm AUTO and call it good ...

Wow ... came into this thread a bit late, but had to chime in after reading this:

"I saw an episode of Hawaii 5-0 once where McGarret shot down a helicopter with his [.38 Special snubnose] ***"

I saw an episode of Miami Vice 1.0 once (2nd Season, pilot episode, title "Prodigal Son," to be exact), where Det. Sonny Crockett shot down a helicopter with his Bren Ten 10mm handcannon - much more realistic, and guess what? Vltor's bringing out a modified, improved version of the Bren, to be called the Fortis, so all the 10mm-haters out there can just wring their little hands and stay tuned.

Plus, Colt will be releasing a "limited run" of Delta Elites later this year. And from certain "inner circles," there's a rumor about hush-hush experiments with a 10mm M&P ... ... interesting - especially for a cartridge that "eveybody knows is way dead," to quote an on-line critic.

Well, after 25 years and despite its detractors, the 10mm AUTO is still the most powerful service cartridge that can be stuffed inside a semi-automatic pistol of reasonable size and weight.

Finally serious about stopping power?

Good. Ignore the critics and step up to the 10mm ...

http://bren-ten.com/agtman/id10.html

 

[Hawg]

Jesse James could defend himself quite well with a single action revolver.

True but when he died he was carrying a S&W Schofield double action.
Y'all can argue what's best all day long and not accomplish anything. Carry what you're comfortable with and hope like Hell you never need to use it. I carry a 1911 .45 ACP in my truck and if I ever need it that 255 gr. Keith will put a whompin on whoever it hits.

 

[tenusdad]

caliber

If I thought I was going to a gunfight I'd run or call the cops - if I couldn't I'd pack a 12 guage shotgun, extra ammo and a pair of 1911's with 10 spare magazines - but my carry gun is just another contingency escape plan - not for an extended firefight which is very very unlikely for me - soooooo - a Kel-Tec 32 works fine for most of the real world, is a big suprise for a bad person and would at least spoil the day of anything that gets in front of it's muzzel (then I run and call the cops) - save the N frame for the bedroom drawer

 

[.300H&H]

McGarret, Cannon, Barnaby Jones, Mannix, Kojak...all carried .38's.
James Bond carried a .25acp and then switched to a .380acp.



Yawning...


Blackbeard the pirate carried flintlocks that delivered about the same energy as a modern mildly loaded .38.


U.S. Brigadier Generals in WW2 were issued .32's.


Tom Selleck in Magnum P.I. used a .45.


I prefer a .38, but also carry at times a .25acp. Call me old-fashioned.