An Avoidable Tragedy

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Moonglum said:
Hey Frank, there's more case law than that to look at. Look at the case of the drunk coed in Boulder who walked through an unlocked front door, ended up in the bedroom an got shot no charges filed


http://abcnews.go.com/US/drunk-woman-wanders-colorado-couples-home-shot/story?id=16435998

Sean Kennedy never even made it all the way into the house before being shot no charges filed


http://www.foxnews.com/story/2009/0...d-against-colorado-man-who-shot-intruder.html....
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First, that's not case law. Case law is what courts of appeals say in their decision. You're looking at incidents.

Every incident is different and will have different legal consequences depending on exactly what happened and how it happened.

Moonglum said:
....My biggest problem with the moderation here (and at the high road) is arrogance of the moderators. You guys assume you're always right and you get bent out of shape if anyone dares to question your "expert opinion"....
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All opinions are not equal. The opinions of professionals with appropriate education and experience in the subject are one thing. Opinions plucked out of the air by persons without relevant qualifications are quite another. You've certainly given me no reason to take your opinions on matters of law seriously.

Understand that we don't care what you think or believe. You're certainly free to act on whatever you think or believe, no matter how wrong you might be. What might happen to you as a result of your choices in not our concern.

But your infirm opinions and specious reasoning will be vigorously challenged. Others should understand that they pay attention to your opinions at their peril and that if they do pay attention to your opinions on points of law they might well get themselves into a lot of trouble.
 
Posted by Moonglum:
Again, if you enter my home illegally in the middle of the night (which would include any method other than someone in my family opening a door and letting you in) you assume all responsibility for the danger you placed yourself in.
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"Again" is the operative word. We have been over that.

And remember he doesn't have to be an intruder I just have to reasonably believe he's an intruder.
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The issue will be the evidence that supports the reasonableness of your belief, which will be judged by others on the basis of that evidence.
Hey Frank, there's more case law than that to look at. Look at the case of the drunk coed in Boulder who walked through an unlocked front door, ended up in the bedroom an got shot no charges filed

http://abcnews.go.com/US/drunk-woman...ry?id=16435998

Sean Kennedy never even made it all the way into the house before being shot no charges filed

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2009/01...-intruder.html
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That is not case law at all. That is a particular incident.

And "will not be charged" can be a very temporary thing.

I said (Quite specifically) that if you're sneaking around my house uninvited (the idea that my hypothetical kid invited the neighbor kid wasn't introduced until later) in the middle of the night that you assumed that risk not me.
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Well, what risk the unknown-to-you guest may have assumed is one thing and may not matter to you, but it certainly does not free you from the risk of becoming a pariah for the rest of your life.
 
The way the law reads, even in Colorado, the home owner does assume a lot of risk if shooting an intruder. It says the intruder has to be uninvited AND there has to be reasonable belief the intruder has or will commit a crime in addition to the intrusion AND you have to reasonable believe the intruder intends to use physical force against you. It is up to law enforcement, judge, jury to determine if all these criteria are met.

You are right that your first responsibility is to protect yourself and your family. We all weigh the risks in our heads. Like you said, I loose big if my family or I get killed. I also loose pretty darned big if I am in the wrong in a shooting incident and get jail time. I also loose big if i'm in the right as far as criminal law is concerned, yet I loose everything I've ever worked for in a civil case. I also loose a lot of money if I'm in the right in the shooting and win the civil case -- the lawyer will get paid. The best winning scenario is a no shoot. In a shooting scenario even if no charges are filed, and there is no civil case, there will be publicity, additional worry and stress -- it's still a loss.
 
I refuse to defend a position I never took.

I said it before, I'll say it again and then I'm done.

If you are sneaking (Pax' word not mine) around my home in the middle of the night (invited people do not sneak) then you took that risk upon yourself I didn't force it on you.
 
Every incident, is different, but some things are different only because of the members in a residence, and who is identifiable.

In our case, a Husband and Wife, 80 year old Husband 71 year old Wife.

Our bedroom second floor, to enter as a criminal, you would need to make noise. I have a Glock 19 with TruGlo sights, and three LED lights upstairs, two at the side table.

My thought, such a bright light might identify me, but also potentially blind a person creeping around in the dark.

I do well shooting one handed, and really do feel you need to identify persons first and foremost. Before we fire lethal bullets at them.

It is so easy to identify enemy's in my house! The one behind me is not one, any in front will be in bright white light.
 
Calling out to a potentially armed and dangerous intruder is folly, IMHO.

That being said, a weapons light of some kind or a switch of the lights is absolutely vital before firing on the target.

ID the target.

But don't ID yourself.
 
Posted by Moonglum:
If you are sneaking (Pax' word not mine) around my home in the middle of the night (invited people do not sneak) then you took that risk upon yourself I didn't force it on you.
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I'm not sure just what you think that means, but it may not prove to be very important to you at all.

I have two very strong recommendations for you.

First, quit making statements that could come back to haunt you and weaken or maybe even destroy a defense of justification, should you ever have to mount one.

Second, vastly improve your knowledge of use of force law as soon as you can. Find out when and were Massad Ayoob will be presenting MAG-20, and make arrangements to go there and to attend.

And do pay attention.
 
Moonglum said:
...If you are sneaking (Pax' word not mine) around my home in the middle of the night (invited people do not sneak)...
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Actually, I would expect an invited houseguest off to the bathroom or to the kitchen for a glass of milk late at night to be moving slowly (in an unfamiliar and dark house) and quietly (as a courtesy to others). That sounds like "sneaking" but is normal and expected houseguest behavior.
 
It's 4:00 am and you hear something in the living room. U wake up and grab your gun. As you walk into the living room you see someone in a Scary Movie costume complete with mask. What do you do? Answer quickly now as anything could happen at this point. Got your answer yet? Did you shoot? Well I told my son to take that dog gone costume off and go back to bed. This could have ended badly for alot of people.
 
Actually, I would expect an invited houseguest off to the bathroom or to the kitchen for a glass of milk late at night to be moving slowly (in an unfamiliar and dark house) and quietly (as a courtesy to others). That sounds like "sneaking" but is normal and expected houseguest behavior.

Then there's that awkward moment when you're twisting my words to make yourself right.
 
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