An Avoidable Tragedy

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The tragedy could have been prevented by a simple "Who's there?," but it could have also drawn a bullet from an intruder. It's a double edge sword and there is no pat answer for this kind of thing.

His reference to a flashlight has drawn many criticisms on this forum, re: Giving away your position.

So what do you do? No one wants to kill their child by mistake, but what if it was an armed intruder instead of his child?

I'm gettin' the popcorn out for this one.
 
Day One Use of Force, identify your target, simple. You can't shoot what you can't see. That would even be a bad LEO shooting.
 
My father came home late one night back in `43 during his continuing TDY's/spin-up in B-17s before going over to England w/ the 8th.
He didn't want to wake my mother, so he took his shoes off and came quietly up the stairs to bed.

He recounted later how incredibly large the hole was in the end of the 1911 that met him held in my mother's hands

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To not take any steps to identify that which you cannot
see -- save in extra-ordinary circumstance -- is
prescription for disaster

.
 
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This seems to fall under the heading of "target identification" rather than whether to issue a warning. It is egregiously unfair to second-guess someone in such a situation, and my heart breaks for the father. But he failed to adequately identify his target.

And NOW, this incident will be tucked neatly away into the arrow-quiver of the anti-gunners who will insist on non-sequitur regulations "because SOMETHING simply MUST be done!" even though no measure they'll advocate will address such a tragedy.
 
Posted by gyvel:
The tragedy could have been prevented by a simple "Who's there?," but it could have also drawn a bullet from an intruder. It's a double edge sword and there is no pat answer for this kind of thing.
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i seriously doubt that "who's there" would "draw a bullet".

His reference to a flashlight has drawn many criticisms on this forum, re: Giving away your position.
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Shooting at something you cannot identify is a much more serious risk. The issue we have discussed most often is whether the light would be hand-held or mounted on the wagon, or whether house lights could be used to illuminate the area.

So what do you do? No one wants to kill their child by mistake, but what if it was an armed intruder instead of his child?
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Very simply, I would not go looking for someone whom I thought may have entered the house.

If he knows I am coming he can ambush me--worse, if they know I am coming, I could be walking into a cross-fire.

If I could do so without leaving other family members at risk, I would get behind some cover or concealment, let them know that they should stay away, and let them come to me if they so desired.
 
Sadly tragic, but predictable to some degree when people don't restrict themselves from shooting until they've clearly identified their intended threat target is actually a threat, and actually an intended target.
 
Let's take it the other way. If you make sure where the people who should be in the house are, then anyone else in the house is an intruder.

Jim
 
If I could do so without leaving other family members at risk, I would get behind some cover or concealment, let them know that they should stay away, and let them come to me if they so desired.
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Then what you have done is given away your position and invited a fire fight?
 
Posted by gyvel:
Then what you have done is given away your position and invited a fire fight?
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Of course not!

If I go hunting, I will "give away" my exposed, moving position to people whose locations I do not know, and I will very likely walk into an ambush.

If I stay in one defensible place, they would have to find it, and a verbal warning would not provide any really precise navigational coordinates.

And you can bet your bottom dollar that, unless their mission is to assassinate me, they would do anything they could to decline an "invitation to a fire fight".

The number one rule in home defense is to let the threat come to you.
 
It is nothing unfair to say it was the shooter's fault. It is what it is. He made a grave mistake.

It is also nothing unfair that the anti-gun crowd will say something about it. Why won't they? We screwed up. Of course they are going to make a big deal out of it. If we don't want hear that, don't screw up.

We are blessed to have right to keep and bear arms in this country. But are we always doing the right things to keep that rights to ourselves?

-TL
 
Let's take it the other way. If you make sure where the people who should be in the house are, then anyone else in the house is an intruder.
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Yeah, that's how you end up shooting your son's best friend that he snuck into the house to spend the night, after the kid had a fight with his parents.

pax
 
This is quite similar to the Louisana case (IIRC) where a teenage age girl came home early. She hid in the closet to scare Dad. She left the front door open. He saw the door open and went inside to 'clear'. She jumped out and met with a 357 COM. She died saying: Daddy, I love you. It might be on the web now but watch the interview with him. Horrible.

It is also an argument for hunkering down and calling the law rather than 'exploring'. At the NTI, my partner came out of a house run said: "Glenn - I shot my son".

Some will say they don't want to bother the law or it takes them 30 minutes to respond. So what? I'd rather hunker for 30 minutes than deal with the aftermath of something like this.
 
Let's take it the other way. If you make sure where the people who should be in the house are, then anyone else in the house is an intruder.
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Yeah, that's how you end up shooting your son's best friend that he snuck into the house to spend the night, after the kid had a fight with his parents.
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Actually, it isn't restricted to the kid's best friend. The first strategy is how this happened if you read between the lines just a bit. The kid wasn't supposed to be in the house, he was supposed to be at school, so the dad presumed the noise in the basement to be an intruder. A horrible thing for the dad to live with; I think these incidents are their own punishment, and prosecution is cruel, but I am sure that some folks think they should be made an example of.
 
I'm a firm believer is the use of either a flashlight or weapon mounted light when using a firearm at night. It may be cumbersome, and create a tactical disadvantage, but it is 100% necessary to ensure you actually identify your target. Believing you will somehow "just know" or be able to quickly turn on every light in your home with a full dose of adrenaline is wishful thinking.

However, I don't believe that yelling "who's there?" at a silhouette in the darkness is a practical solution to the problem. In the event that it is an intruder, the best case outcome is they run off, and the worst case outcome is they respond with gunfire.
 
Identify, identify, identify.
________________
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That sums it up nicely. In the dark you MUST use some kind of alt light source. Handheld or WML is up to you and your skill level. But, POSITIVE identification is a MUST.
 
And you can bet your bottom dollar that, unless their mission is to assassinate me, they would do anything they could to decline an "invitation to a fire fight".
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Ideally, this is what one would hope for. Unfortunately, this presumes that the intruder is in some semblance of a "right mind."
 
However, I don't believe that yelling "who's there?" at a silhouette in the darkness is a practical solution to the problem. In the event that it is an intruder, the best case outcome is they run off, and the worst case outcome is they respond with gunfire.
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And I agree with this. Giving away your position is (to me) not the best option.

The only time I would ever give away my position is if I felt that I had a definite advantage in the situation in doing so.

Unfortunately, until we are in the actual situation, we can't second guess what we would do. Every situation will be different, every house is different, every neighborhood is different.

Besides, my dogs would blow it.:D
 
I don't know how I could live with myself if it were me. I would like to think I'd take the risk of hesitation until positive identification.

Seems like we only have extremes to choose from on forums. Its either hunker down and call the police, or stand in the middle of the hallway and yell "who's there?"

How about not opening the door and going into the basement when you hear the noise, take a position of cover outside the basement door, and then call out "who's there?"
 
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