An anti-NRA thread..or "The NRA does NOT compromise"

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Danzig

New member
I've read many a thread where persons accuse the NRA of compromising away our rights. I'll be honest: I've made that mistake before myself. I've accused the NRA of being lousy, lowdown, compromisers. I was wrong. The NRA does NOT compromise.

Compromise can only happen when both sides in an issue have something to offer each other. "You give me a little bit of what I want and in return I will give you something that you want." That is compromise.

However, the anti gun lobby has NOTHING that we want. (No..giving something back that they've taken in exchange for the permission to take something else is not compromise.) As they have nothing we want, there can be no compromise. And there has NEVER been any compromise between them and us, or between them and the NRA.

No, no compromise. They NRA has given our rights away pure and simple. They have gotten us nothing in exchange for what they have voluntarily given up..nothing that hadn't been previously stolen from us. I believe that makes the NRA a bunch of dirty thieves who disguise themselves as our allies. Wolves in sheep's clothing. Anti gunners disguised as Second Amendment supporters.
 
I might take some heat for this but it what I truely believe so I will say it.

The anti-gunnies do have something we want. If they are the majority they have the ability to take away our "right" to bear arms. Therefore what we want from them is for them to not do that.

People like to talk alot about "rights" but the one thing they seem to not understand is that the only "rights" a person has are the ones bestowed upon them by the society within which they live. You are not born with inborn "rights" just for being a human or an American. These rights are benefits bestowed upon you by the constitution/bill of rights. If your fellow man did not band together as a society and bestow certain priveledges upon you the only rights you would have would come from the strength of your hands and the strength of your mind. It would be survival of the fittest and unless you could outthink or overpower your fellow man you would be overpowered yourself. Like a pack of wild dogs, you would constantly have to prove your worth to the group dynamic or be forced out and discarded.

The rights we all enjoy, especially the right to bear arms, are granted to you by the constitution and the people that wrote it. Unfortunately, the constitution is a fluid document that reflects the will of the people. It would not be hard to rally people behind the fight to outlaw handguns if all the anti gunnies got organized and really pushed the agenda. The majority of Americans do not have a favorable opinion of handguns to begin with these days. I think we have all experienced the anti-gun prejudices of our fellow man.

Therefore the work of the NRA and other organizations are very much needed to stave off a full fledged anti-gun crusade. They holdback a tide of prejudice, misunderstanding, and outright discrimination against gun owners. Without such organizations I think you would be suprised how quickly these "rights" you enjoy could disappear.
 
Constant fighting for the 2A in D.C. too gets hairy and political for my blood. They may have faults i.e. not supporting Ron Paul at crucial times, but I look at it like this:
While one can give 1 valid fault/misjudgment, supporters of the NRA can counter 100's of good things they have done to help protect the 2A.
I'll take that law of probablility as a bet almost every time.
Is the NRA perfect? No. There are a lot of headaches lately. But, I believe none of us are perfect and the association is well meaning.
 
Unfortunately, the constitution is a fluid document that reflects the will of the people. [//b]

IT IS NOT, it can be changed only by a difficult political process, and that is an amendment.
It is a unbending document, period.

We are the only country in the world where its citizens were given absolute rights.
Sadly the moron majority verbally flatulates about this and that God given right, and there are none.

The Second Amendment exists in case, some Washington arses decide it is a fluid document, in which case, at least some will draw a line in the sand.
Bob
 
Well, no problem then, Danzig. Don't join the NRA. Start your own organization. Or join another group. Make sure to let us know the results of your lobbying efforts. :rolleyes:

And stop relying on the NRA to protect your Constitutional rights; that way, you won't have to whine about how us NRA members are sheep, or wolves, or whatever. :rolleyes:

Another NRA-bashing Thread. Yawn. :rolleyes:
 
Unfortunately, the constitution is a fluid document that reflects the will of the people. [//b]

IT IS NOT, it can be changed only by a difficult political process, and that is an amendment.
It is a unbending document, period.

We are the only country in the world where its citizens were given absolute rights.
Sadly the moron majority verbally flatulates about this and that God given right, and there are none.

The Second Amendment exists in case, some Washington arses decide it is a fluid document, in which case, at least some will draw a line in the sand.
Bob
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Bob, you are incorrect. We have exactly ZERO absolute rights. They are ALL under certain restrictions.

Right to life? Death penalty (and one of very few countries to do that at that)
Right to bear arms? Not if you have a felony conviction
Right to privacy? A.G. Gonzales doesn't think so.

Please name one single right that is not ABRIDGED.

The greatness of the constitution is that is can be modified via the amendment process. I think fluid is the correct term, though maybe gel would be better as it does take some work like you said to make it squishy.

I don't understand what you are saying in your last paragraph.
 
IT IS NOT, it can be changed only by a difficult political process, and that is an amendment.
It is a unbending document, period.
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Ever here of those things called amendments? They are changes to the constitution. You cannot say something is unbending yet can be changed. It is contradictory.

We are the only country in the world where its citizens were given absolute rights.
Sadly the moron majority verbally flatulates about this and that God given right, and there are none.
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There is no such thing as an "absolute" right nor a "god given" right.
If rights were absolute or god given they would never need to be fought for and they would be readily available for all people. Survival of the fittest is the only true law of nature. Any other right has been fought for by people that came before you and is presented to you on their behalf by the civilization that they built on the foundation of those rights.
 
Fremmer,

I don't rely on the NRA to support my rights..because I know that they don't.

I DO vote for candidates who will support my rights.

I made it clear in the title that this is an NRA bashing thread. If you unwaveringly support the NRA that was your flag to avoid this thread. However, even though you were warned you decided to venture here anyway. I say, welcome. I don't expect you to agree with this thread but I will thank you if you offer some intelligent comments to it.
In Liberty,

Danzig
 
I have donated in the past. I then promptly recieved a ton of mail asking for even more money. I am sure that all that mail cost more than my dues. :rolleyes: Definitely a waste.


People like to talk alot about "rights" but the one thing they seem to not understand is that the only "rights" a person has are the ones bestowed upon them by the society within which they live. You are not born with inborn "rights" just for being a human or an American. These rights are benefits bestowed upon you by the constitution/bill of rights.
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I agree we are pretending but at least, here in America, we have the best imagination.

If push comes to shove, here is the proof that some people will "play pretend" to the death, despite what the will of present society is or no matter what the .gov says or does.....

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume, among the Powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,
that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
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However, the anti gun lobby has NOTHING that we want. (No..giving something back that they've taken in exchange for the permission to take something else is not compromise.)
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The parenthetical isn't logically supportable. You can't use common words and then redefine them so that they support your argument. Whether or not you like HOW they got them, they still have lots of things to offer that many gun owners want.

The anti-gunners not infrequently get enough power to TAKE rights from us. We almost NEVER have enough power to TAKE rights back, but every once in awhile we have enough power to make them TRADE.

We can either refuse to TRADE or we can TRADE when possible. It's not hard to see which approach gets us the most of what we want.

But hey, maybe that's not the way to go. So...

What's YOUR solution--I read through your post several times and couldn't find you advocating anything other than "no compromise". If you're saying "no compromise" is a good strategy then, logically, gun owners would be better off today if the NRA had taken a no compromise approach and you should have no problem supporting such a premise.

Personally, speaking as a gun owner, I have more freedom (in terms of gun ownership) today than I did 5 years ago (before the AWB expired)--or than I did 15 years ago (before the CHL law in TX passed)--or than I would have had 25 years ago (before the FOPA passed). All of those were compromises...
 
+1 JohnKSa.
I've tried to convey that in other threads especially about having more rights today than in previous years. Some don't see it that way. But, the points you make are valid.

I'm only speculating, but it appears that Ron Paul is adamant on preserving the Constitution and Bill of Rights. The NRA has not endorsed him, instead his opponents in the past. But, I think the NRA also sees what he stands for in other issues would possibly indirectly backfire and the crediblility of the NRA would be damaged.
 
"The rights we all enjoy, especially the right to bear arms, are granted to you by the constitution and the people that wrote it."

PBP, if I want to, I can give you my car because I own it. But I can't give you my neighbor's car because I don't own it. We, as a nation, can grant to certain people the power to investigate, arrest and punish wrongdoers. Why? Because that is a power we all have, though few of us choose to use it, finding it easier to let someone else do the dirty work.
The rights we all enjoy could not be granted by any Constitution or people who may have written it unless they first had those rights to give. If, as you say, the Founders granted us those rights, where did they get them? If they took them by force of arms from whomever or whatever entity possessed them before, where did that entity get them?
I have the right to life, among other rights. That right was given to me by whatever Power possessed it. The Founders didn't do it nor does the Constitution grant it. Jefferson referred to this Power as our "Creator." I believe my Creator is a God that gives life, sits in judgement and metes out punishment and rewards. That God is the sole grantor of rights.
With my right to life, I also have the right to do with it as I please, taking into consideration that it will be the basis for His judgement. Government has no right to my life, though it strives mightily for it. If government demands my life it must be because I have deprived someone else of his or her life first and in so doing, forfeit my own.
The right to bear arms is simply an extension of the right to life. A right to life would be meaningless with no right to protect it nor any right to the basic implements needed to protect it. Again, a right cannot be granted by any entity which does not already possess it. If the Founders "granted" us the right to keep and bear arms - where did they get it?
No, rights are endowed by our Creator. We can give them up or they can be torn from us but they still exist, waiting for us to assume them once again. It is a sad thing that the worst thief of our rights is our own government and even more sad that we permit it to continue.
 
the only "rights" a person has are the ones bestowed upon them by the society within which they live. You are not born with inborn "rights" just for being a human or an American. These rights are benefits bestowed upon you by the constitution/bill of rights.
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This is the most dangerous of all "compromises" to make when trying to safeguard your rights against those who would abridge or take them away.

My rights transcend government... There is a cost associated with exercising some of them or re-discovering them and if the return on investment is high enough, I will pay the price.

I agree that "compromise" with gun-grabbers is only accomplishing 2 things:
1. Giving them something that they want since they are typically the only ones who introduce new legislation to alter (negatively) our laws,
2. Postponing the inevitable day where too many compromises leave us as toothless wolves getting mauled by a bear.
 
My rights transcend government... There is a cost associated with exercising some of them or re-discovering them and if the return on investment is high enough, I will pay the price.
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Really, how is that so? Explain to me what makes you think this. What would stop all your rights from disappearing tomorrow if we were invaded and conquered by a power such as China?

Oldphart,
If it can be takn from you it is not a right but a priveledge. You are not bestowed any "rights" by any god you care to worship.

You say you can transfer the ownership of your car to me which is true, but the fact that you can own it is a right given to you by the society in which you live. Not by some divine being or inborn right. If the society you lived in did not allow the ownership of personal property then you would not be able to do what you mentioned. That logic is completely faulty.
 
PBP, neither of us is likely to convince the other to change his stance. I retire from the field. Continue as you wish.
 
Explain to me what makes you think this. What would stop all your rights from disappearing tomorrow if we were invaded and conquered by a power such as China?
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I can choose to live outside of whatever law is dictated to me.

I can choose to manufacture firearms if none are available to me.

I can choose to booby-trap a Chinese/UN Blue Helmet/Pelosi-Gestapo group of foot soldiers and take their weapons, using force to re-establish my rights in the eyes of government, or develop a new government contract between myself and like-minded people.

"Conquered" means that I admit I have no rights. How many people on this gun board would truly be conquered by a foreign or domestic invader?

I can always choose to not be conquered. No one can take that from any man... the most that can be taken is a life.
 
"Really, how is that so? Explain to me what makes you think this. What would stop all your rights from disappearing tomorrow if we were invaded and conquered by a power such as China?"

If I may...

I believe AZR was referring to these words, found in the preamble to the Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

If you believe this statement, then you would have to conclude that the rights exist independent of government, or even a conquering power that violates them.

Edit: Evidently I guessed wrong about what AZR was saying. Nonethless, I stand by my statement on its own merits.

Tim
 
I believe AZR was referring to these words, found in the preamble to the Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

If you believe this statement, then you would have to conclude that the rights exist independent of government, or even a conquering power that violates them.

Edit: Evidently I guessed wrong about what AZR was saying. Nonethless, I stand by my statement on its own merits.
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You hit the nail on the head, Tim. I do subscribe to the thought that God gave me this life and the choices that are available to me in it.

If I lived in California and I was prohibited from owning 20rd magazines for my M14, I would either take my battle to the legislature, take it to the streets, get my mags on the black market, or move.

If Kali law became US law in this matter, I would disregard it. When the federales came knocking, they would either not find me, not find the "contraband", or not be returning home that day.

There is always a choice to not subscribe to a rule imposed upon you. It's just a question of how large a price there is to pay for that decision.
 
PBP, neither of us is likely to convince the other to change his stanc
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I am not trying to convince you. I learned a log time ago to not try and change the opinion of an "old phart" unless I wanted a cane shaped dent in my forehead or a well worn boot in my keester. :)

Just stating my views.
 
blah blah blah, the NRA is evil, blah blah blah, the NRA only wants our money, blah blah blah, we would be much better off without them.

This seems to be a common complaint by a few vocal and dissatisfied individuals.

Contrary to the comments made by a previous Constitutional scholar that your rights can easily be changed or removed. The Ammendment process is not as impossible as you may think. The majority of the nations voters were drinkers yet prohibition was passed... One could easily argue that as a percentage there are fewer gun owners drinkers. Then there is the Judiciary which has virtually unopposed power thanks to one of the few errors made at this nations founding. Whoever is elected can push for judges that share their views resulting in "reinterpretation" of your rights.

You can either work with the system we have or be run over by it. The NRA works with the system. Those screaming from the outside will accomplish nothing and are easily dissmissed by the middle of America as "Gun Nuts."
 
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