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AMT .380 9mm Kurz Back up trigger missing, damaged?
- Thread starter markchadwick
- Start date
markchadwick
Inactive
I didnt buy the gun. It was allegedly used in a shooting. It's currently in police custody, and will probably be destroyed pending the resolution of this case.
A friend of mine is a lawyer on the case, and showed me pictures of the gun to get my opinion on it, since I know a little about guns. I figured a case like this would need the opinions of experts, and what better way to elicit expert opinions than on TFL, the biggest forum for gun geeks in North America...
A friend of mine is a lawyer on the case, and showed me pictures of the gun to get my opinion on it, since I know a little about guns. I figured a case like this would need the opinions of experts, and what better way to elicit expert opinions than on TFL, the biggest forum for gun geeks in North America...
I am not a gun smith, but I am highly skeptical the trigger could break from a drop/throw, especially given the condition that it is in. If this is the case, why didn't they find the trigger?
It was most likely removed at some point. This doesn't mean it couldn't be fired, just don't think the trigger broke off from an impact.
It was most likely removed at some point. This doesn't mean it couldn't be fired, just don't think the trigger broke off from an impact.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
I'll hazard a guess that they didn't find the trigger because they didn't look for it. They were looking for a gun ... they found the gun. Given that they were chasing an active shooter and had apprehended him, it's entirely possible that whoever found and picked up the gun didn't notice that the trigger was missing, or didn't have any idea that such might have any significance.Kodyo said:I am not a gun smith, but I am highly skeptical the trigger could break from a drop/throw, especially given the condition that it is in. If this is the case, why didn't they find the trigger?
It was most likely removed at some point. This doesn't mean it couldn't be fired, just don't think the trigger broke off from an impact.
If the location where the gun was recovered can be pinpointed with any accuracy, I'd bet that the trigger is still right there on the ground. Probably basically intact, perhaps with the rear mounting tab sheared off.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Dunno which side your attorney friend is on, but let's assume for the moment that both he and the local PD are at least ethical and want untainted evidence. If we can proceed on that basis, I would respectfully suggest to the forensic armorer taking the pistol down that he be on the lookout for either the rear mounting tab of the trigger pad (part #40 in the Numrich schematic) being still in the pistol and pinned in place, OR the disconnector pin connecting the trigger pad to the disconnector or trigger bar (part #20 in the schematic) being possibly broken or missing. Depending on what broke to allow the trigger to depart from the receiver, the trigger return spring (part #39) might or might not still be in place. That bit of information could also be significant.markchadwick said:Good discussion here, folks. I told my friend to have the gun detail stripped but that might take a while. They want the firearms section of the local police crime lab to do it and they're always backed up with cases.
Yes, I could see that its possible this gun was previously worn or damaged in such a way that it was possible for the trigger to simply fall out. The design of the trigger makes it seem like it could fall out given said wear or damage.
So, if the trigger did fall out, would there be any piece of it left behind? From what I see of the schematic, probably not...
markchadwick
Inactive
Very nice, thank you, AB.
I would think a PO that finds a gun would first check to make sure it's safe, unless they want to leave it on the ground for the crime scene guys to photograph first. So you'd think whoever handled it first would notice the trigger was missing, that being a fairly integral part of the gun?
And maybe they looked for it but i guess in this case couldnt find it, again not super surprising/suspicious; I dont know how long the chase lasted (how much ground was covered), the lighting conditions, the ground clutter (was it tossed in bushes, etc) but all those are factors that would contribute to not finding the trigger, if indeed there was one.
I would think a PO that finds a gun would first check to make sure it's safe, unless they want to leave it on the ground for the crime scene guys to photograph first. So you'd think whoever handled it first would notice the trigger was missing, that being a fairly integral part of the gun?
And maybe they looked for it but i guess in this case couldnt find it, again not super surprising/suspicious; I dont know how long the chase lasted (how much ground was covered), the lighting conditions, the ground clutter (was it tossed in bushes, etc) but all those are factors that would contribute to not finding the trigger, if indeed there was one.
markchadwick
Inactive
So, AB, to clarify, do you think if the rear mounting tab of the trigger pad (part #40) and/or the disconnector pin (part #20) is still in the pistol, that tends to lend credence to the story that the suspect did indeed fire the pistol before he was caught?
But if those parts arent in there, then that doesn't mean the reverse, that the pistol could not have been fired? Because maybe they just fell out when the trigger fell out?
I dont know, is it hard to tell from the schematic whether any of this could be true? Would a new trigger part have to be ordered to make it functional and see if/how any of these pieces could fall out of the gun?
But if those parts arent in there, then that doesn't mean the reverse, that the pistol could not have been fired? Because maybe they just fell out when the trigger fell out?
I dont know, is it hard to tell from the schematic whether any of this could be true? Would a new trigger part have to be ordered to make it functional and see if/how any of these pieces could fall out of the gun?
Trigger fell out and lost
I have a IAI (amt) back-up 380 (9mm kurz) and the trigger fell out of mine. I carried it in a holster when I owned a convenience store. I did have to pull it out several time off and on and one day I noticed something funny looking about it when I took it out to clean it and saw the trigger was missing. This was about 10 yrs ago. It's one of the late 80's early 90's models with the slide trigger. I had a friend who is a private gun dealer see about finding a replacement trigger for it back then 10 yrs ago not sure how hard he looked for one but never did! I still have the pistol will in the process of getting it back from my friend. Was wondering if you or anybody knows of where I can get a new trigger for it? Please reply on here or u can email me @ long012569@aol.com. Would love to get it fixed! I liked this pistol very much it was very accurate for a small firearm. Would hate to have to turn it into a paperweight. So if anyone can help me out I would greatly appreciate it! Thanks Jeff
I have a IAI (amt) back-up 380 (9mm kurz) and the trigger fell out of mine. I carried it in a holster when I owned a convenience store. I did have to pull it out several time off and on and one day I noticed something funny looking about it when I took it out to clean it and saw the trigger was missing. This was about 10 yrs ago. It's one of the late 80's early 90's models with the slide trigger. I had a friend who is a private gun dealer see about finding a replacement trigger for it back then 10 yrs ago not sure how hard he looked for one but never did! I still have the pistol will in the process of getting it back from my friend. Was wondering if you or anybody knows of where I can get a new trigger for it? Please reply on here or u can email me @ long012569@aol.com. Would love to get it fixed! I liked this pistol very much it was very accurate for a small firearm. Would hate to have to turn it into a paperweight. So if anyone can help me out I would greatly appreciate it! Thanks Jeff
Jlong, assuming you still have the internal part that the trigger shoe attaches to, here you go: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=415737665
P.S. - this is a 3-year old thread - probably best to start a new one.
P.S. - this is a 3-year old thread - probably best to start a new one.
Bandon7414
Inactive
Same thing happened to mine but What would cause the trigger to fall out if the gun was never dropped ?
HisSoldier
New member
Weirdest thing just happened to me. I went to look at my SA .380 Back Up and decided it was too much trouble to take the slide off, you have to drive a roll pin out. So I'm about to put it back in the safe when "Clunk" the trigger FELL OUT! I'm not making this up folks. I've shot the gun and had it apart before but never had the trigger fall out before. The gun was functional at least to the point of dry firing it, as I check chamber and dry fired it minutes before that happened.
Really, what are the odds that it would happen as I'm trying to verify that it could? And I didn't shake it or anything, the trigger is still out and I have to figure out how to get it back in, probably have to drive that stupid roll pin out first, but I'd never trust it now anyway until I know how it happened and how I can make sure it never does again.
Really, what are the odds that it would happen as I'm trying to verify that it could? And I didn't shake it or anything, the trigger is still out and I have to figure out how to get it back in, probably have to drive that stupid roll pin out first, but I'd never trust it now anyway until I know how it happened and how I can make sure it never does again.
HisSoldier
New member
Mystery solved!
Before the trigger fell out of my AMT Back Up I had taken the riops off so I could look inside (I hoped) and see why that could happen.
OK, the trigger is kept from coming out by the pin I mentioned that slides into the hole in the rearward most extension of the trigger, a small narrow tap that projects backwards out of the trigger to the rear on the RH side, which slides into a slot in the frame. That slot is exposed on the outside of the frame under the grip.
There is a trigger bar that slides forward and back on the outside of the frame under the grip, and at it's forward end is a projection with a small pin. That pin slides into the small hole at the back RH rear of the trigger, and holds the trigger from coming out.
What keeps the trigger bar in so that pin will stay engaged is,,,you guessed it, The grip. But, the screw that holds the grip in place is at the rearward edge, the front edge has a lip that slides just barely under a tiny ledge in the front edge of the frame cutout.
So if you take the grip off and put it back on without that lip being under the ledge there is really very little but the rigidity of the plastic grip to hold the trigger bar in so that pin can keep the trigger in. Also, there is a return spring behind the trigger itself that will "help" the trigger pop out if the bar slips to the right.
Simple really, and I should have guessed there had to be more than one small screw at the rear edge of the grip to keep it secure.
Before the trigger fell out of my AMT Back Up I had taken the riops off so I could look inside (I hoped) and see why that could happen.
OK, the trigger is kept from coming out by the pin I mentioned that slides into the hole in the rearward most extension of the trigger, a small narrow tap that projects backwards out of the trigger to the rear on the RH side, which slides into a slot in the frame. That slot is exposed on the outside of the frame under the grip.
There is a trigger bar that slides forward and back on the outside of the frame under the grip, and at it's forward end is a projection with a small pin. That pin slides into the small hole at the back RH rear of the trigger, and holds the trigger from coming out.
What keeps the trigger bar in so that pin will stay engaged is,,,you guessed it, The grip. But, the screw that holds the grip in place is at the rearward edge, the front edge has a lip that slides just barely under a tiny ledge in the front edge of the frame cutout.
So if you take the grip off and put it back on without that lip being under the ledge there is really very little but the rigidity of the plastic grip to hold the trigger bar in so that pin can keep the trigger in. Also, there is a return spring behind the trigger itself that will "help" the trigger pop out if the bar slips to the right.
Simple really, and I should have guessed there had to be more than one small screw at the rear edge of the grip to keep it secure.
In NC, you can be charged with "armed robbery" even if you have no weapon, but simply pretend to have one.It would be completely counterproductive to their own case to have a gun they claim was used in a crime to be unusable by the perp.
That would also apply to a toy/non-functional weapon
The crime is the same no matter the condition of the weapon