Ammunition for S&W 317 Problem

J

jfreegun

Inactive
I recently purchased a brand new Smith&Wesson Model 317, 22 caliber revolver in July. I'm new to being a gun owner and chose the 317 as a starter for its simple design, lack of recoil, lite weight, and reasonable ammo price. Overall, I'm quite pleased with the 317 and having a good time at our local gun club range.
However, I've begun trying a variety of ammunition attempting to balance quality, performance, price and availability. There seems to be a problem shooting these 3 CCI brand products in the 317. The cylinder jams after a couple rounds. The round fires but the cylinder freezes/jams. The next round can't be fired and I'm not able to open the cylinder. The fix is to carefully use a cleaning rod down the barrel seemingly to adjust the spent shell. The cartridges seem to be of a high, consistent quality and are a very good fit when loaded. I opened the new box of CCI Blazer yesterday and tried 3 times getting jams. Another shooter gave me CCI Mini-Mags to try but this resulted in the same type jam. I switched to using Remington CBEE22 successfully firing 100 rounds without any issues at all. I experienced the same behavior on my previous outing using Velocitors. The revolver was thoroughly clean when I started and I've fired less than 1000 rounds to date.
Has anyone experienced something similar or have any thoughts/suggestions regarding this situation? Thanks in advance.

Consistent jams:
CCI Blazer (brick) - lead round nose 1235 FPS 40 grain
CCI Mini-Mag HV - plated lead round nose 1235 FPS 40 grain
CCI Velocitor - copper plated hollow point 1435 FPS 40 grain

No revolver jams experienced:
Remington CBEE22 - 740 FPS 33 grain
Winchester Xpert HV (brick) - 1280 FPS 36 grains
Winchester Super X - plated hollow point 1330 FPS 37 grains
 
Basically, your gun doesn't like CCI. Most 22s a kind of pickey. Could be that the case rims are just a bit too thick, could be the pressures are a bit too high and is causing the case to "set back" and hit the shiled.

I just wouldn't use the CCI in that gun.
 
I'm at a loss to explain your problem but I'll hazard a wild guess. Perhaps your problem has to do with the fact that the CCI rounds that you're attempting to fire are high energy rounds. That, coupled with the really light weight of your gun, may be causing a problem. Perhaps unfired rounds are being jammed backwards against the recoil shield as a consequence of the transferred energy from the fired rounds. Just a guess. Try firing some lower energy rounds and see what happens.

I'm a big fan of CCI Standard Velocity from my 617. They've got less oomph than the mini-mags but they are extremely accurate and clean burning rounds. Smith recommends them as the round of choice for their premium .22 semi, the Model 41.
 
S&W revolvers tend to have very tight clearance between the cylinder and recoil shield. This tends to create problems if there is any dirt underneath the ejector star, or if any rounds aren't quite chambered all the way. The latter problem is common because a .22LR bullet is the same diameter as the case, so the bullet has to be shoved through the powder residue left by the previous round.

If the revolver has tight chambers- another S&W characteristic- you may also have problems with ammo that is slightly oversize. Some .22LR ammo is purposefully made this way so it will shoot more accurately in guns with loose chambers.
  • Clean under the ejector star really well, and take a rag with you to the range to repeat the process.
  • Take a boresnake to the range to keep the chambers clean.
  • Keep the chambers free of oil.
  • Try this experiment: if the revolver seems to be hard to cock or has a stiff DA pull, take your finger off the trigger, draw the hammer about 1/3 to 1/2 of the way back, and try to turn the cylinder with the support hand. It will have some resistance and will make a "click-click" ratcheting sound, but it should turn smoothly. If it hangs up, some rounds aren't chambered all the way. Open the cylinder and try to push them in with your thumbs; if this doesn't work, clean the chambers and under the ejector star.
 
I'm a big fan of CCI Standard Velocity from my 617. They've got less oomph than the mini-mags but they are extremely accurate and clean burning rounds.
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+1. This may seem peculiar if you're new to shooting, but .22LR target shooters have a historical preference for standard-velocity rather than high-velocity rounds, so most SV ammo is marketed for target shooting and is higher-quality than run-of-the-mill HV ammo. This is why it costs more. :)

On another note, you don't gain much by using hyper-velocity ammo in most pistols because the barrel is too short to take advantage of the extra powder. Some semi-auto pistol users like it because the extra power can cycle the action more reliably, but this concern doesn't apply to revolvers. Also, most types of hyper-velocity ammo (albeit not CCI Velocitors) are made with 29-32 grain bullets rather than the 36-40gr bullets used in regular .22LR. The rifling twist rate in most .22LR revolvers isn't optimum for the lighters bullets, which degrades accuracy.
 
Thank you

Excellent insight and suggestions. Accuracy, consistent quality with no problems and clean rounds is what I'm looking so I'll follow your advice. Thank you all very much!
 
I'm a big fan of CCI Standard Velocity from my 617. They've got less oomph than the mini-mags but they are extremely accurate and clean burning rounds. Smith recommends them as the round of choice for their premium .22 semi, the Model 41.
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Again, I would have too agree. I shoot CCI Standard Velocity out of my little Phoenix HP22a. Even semi-auto 22s don't like some of the high velocity ammo. I use this little pistol in the truck for shooting varmits. The Standard velocity is very accurate even out of a cheap handgun. I would try a box and see if this solves the problem. If not you made need to have S&W look at it.
Good luck,
Howard
 
Yep!

On another note, you don't gain much by using hyper-velocity ammo in most pistols because the barrel is too short to take advantage of the extra powder
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+1 about that.
The gain, if any, is very small. The powders used are optimized for rifle barrels.
I have a 317 that I use a lot. It gets fed CCI SV and there are no problems at all.
BTW - Barnes' "Cartridges of the World" has this note about hypervelocity .22s and short barrels: "These cartridges do provide increased velocity and energy for .22 rimfire rifles"...........In some instances, particularly in short barreled pistols and revolvers.....these loads can generate much less energy than standard .22 Long Rifle high-velocity loads. The bullets actually exit the barrel slower." (p.478, 11th edition).
Pete
 
It sounds like the higher pressure rounds are getting the soft copper case to flow around the firing pin hole or the firing pin itself is sticking in the back of the case. I think I would contact S&W about this. That gun should fire any 22 round on the market without issue.

I had an older Taurus that taurus had left out the firing pin spring. You could point the gun down and the firing pin would slide forward into the cylinder window. I doubt S&W left out a spring but you could have a firing pin thats a little out of spec.
 
I had the same issue, easy fix

Just bought it and went to the range; I tried 3 brands - same issue for over 100 shots, jams in 80-90% of the cases after 2 shots. I was able to get once 6 shots and once 8 shots fired. I went back to the retailer, exchanged the gun and of course went back to the range: I fired over 50 rounds with absolutely no jam (and mostly was high speed/load ammo so in this case that is not an issue). That gun is defective - get it looked at, my first one seemed either to do not have the cylinder lined up with the barrel or too much of a gap between the barrel and the cylinder; that pushed back the shells against the recoil shield.
Hope this helps.
 
Well, wish I would have seen this thread before I purchased my brand new 317-3 a month ago.

I did not anticipate a $600+ revolver to have trouble cycling different types of .22 LR cartridges. Mine wouldn't run cheap Remington Golden bullets (1200 FPS) so I sent it in for repair (because I have an S&W 43C and a Ruger LCR22 which cycles everything just fine.)

Got it back from Smith & Wesson stating that there was nothing wrong with my firearm - just that it "can't shoot CCI Mini-mag or other High Velocity ammo." Are you kidding me??? What good is this gun then?



I called up S&W to confirm this response and the inexperienced kid on the phone mumbled something about it "being an all alloy gun so it couldn't handle the high velocity rounds." Cry me a river!

You can't make a $600+ revolver that isn't designed to handle "high velocity" .22 LR ammunition and maintain a good reputation. At the very least they should state this on their web site so educated buyers can avoid their product altogether.

The irony is that my specific revolver CAN shoot CCI Mini-Mags just fine and even handled 1475 FPS Interceptors as well. But I bought my revolver to handle any and all .22 LR - so I will sell the 317 and keep my cheaper 43c that can and my even less expensive Ruger LCR22 than can as well.

Shame on you Smith & Wesson - you should have either fixed or replaced my gun - not given me some hogwash about your gun being a piece of junk piece of alloy and I should just be happy with that.
 
On the lighter side, when you can make a .22 revolver so it won't cycle certain ammo you've accomplished something. Not sure what, but something.
 
IIRC, the 317 is an "Airlite" kit gun. I suspect the CCI ammo might not be as heavily crimped as the other ammo and that, combined with the higher velocity, causes the bullets of the unfired rounds to jump forward on recoil and tie up the cylinder. That would be consistent with the problem occurring after several rounds, as the gun becomes even lighter.

So the problem, IMHO, really is the ammo, and S&W is correct, but failed to fully explain (or maybe even to fully understand) what the problem really is. The solution is not to use CCI ammo; you might also contact CCI and tell them what looks to be happening and if there are plans to correct the situation.

Here is a simple test. Load the cylinder and fire (CCI ammo) until the gun hangs up. Then open the cylinder without trying to turn it to the next round. Look at the front of the cylinder to see if the unfired bullets have moved. Eject the unfired rounds and check for bullets that jumped the crimp.

Jim
 
All of that sounds fair James K,

IF:

1) ALL 317's could not properly fire CCI Mini-Mags - Ironically, my 317 DOES fire Mini-Mags just fine. So do others. Some don't. Either they should all properly fire them or they should all not properly fire them.

2) If they all can't fire Mini-Mags or other "High Velocity" ammunition then S&W should clearly indicate this in their marketing material - something like, "Our $600 317 can only fire a handful of low velocity ammunition, but the Ruger LCR22 is built to handle all types of .22 LR"

3) My 43c is the same frame and construction - just a shorter barrel and internal hammer - It handles everything I feed it. As I anticipated. I expected the 317 to do the same. I've talked to many owners who's 317 has had no problems with high velocity whatsoever. I just don't like having to play russian roulette with whether or not I get a gun that works as it should

My biggest frustration is that Smith says their gun is average at best by intimating that it will not handle high velocity .22 LR rounds. But mine won't handle "low" velocity Remington Golden Bullets. I just would prefer that they fix it, replace it with one that does work, or refund me for my time, money and effort for not properly marketing their firearm in the first place.
 
huh.

just that it "can't shoot CCI Mini-mag or other High Velocity ammo." Are you kidding me??? What good is this gun then?
Click to expand...

Huh? That question boggles the mind.......it implies that standard velocity ammo has no purpose.
Virtually all of the high end .22rf ammo available...the really expensive precise stuff..... is SV. Why is that? Maybe because it works better.
Pete
 
I had a similar problem with my 317. I have a 3 inch, Hi-Viz front sight version.

I also was perturbed that a .22 revolver would have issues with any kind of .22lr ammunition (short, CB, hyper velocity, whatever). To me that is a lot of the appeal of going the revolver route.

Anyway, long story short I sent mine back to S&W. Was told on another forum that they might be willing to replace the cylinder with a steel one from a model 63, which I asked for.

They did comply with the request. I offered to pay, and they charged me $184 to do it. Plus it took 8 months turnaround time.


The final result is very good. I have had no further issues, and the gun is actually noticeably easier and more pleasant to shoot now. It's no longer light as a feather, but merely light at around 17 ounces. I suspect the steel cylinder adds durability, but also I understand that the gun is intended to be carried much more than shot.


That being said - if you had told me at the gun show that I would eventually have around $850 in the gun to get it where I wanted it, I'm pretty sure I would have passed on it. Even at today's prices, an old model 34 would have been somewhat cheaper. I know where one is right now in awesome shape for about $500. And for the record, I am very surprised that S&W customer service sent that response about not shooting certain kinds of ammo. Just. Wow.
 
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Yuck. Sorry to hear it. I have had really good luck with the old H&R/NEF revolvers. They are easy to find on Gunbroker for less than $200. I got a nice one for around $115. That is a cheap option if S&W won't make things right.
 
The 317 has an aluminum cylinder. I am not sure that is a good idea, and I can see why high pressure ammo might cause problems, but the CCI ammo should not exceed SAAMI maximum pressures. (The high velocities are mainly achieved with light bullets, not high pressures.)

But I am not sure saying not to use some ammunition in the 317 is any different from saying not to use some ammunition in Scandium J-frames, or not to use +P+ .38 Special in some revolvers, or saying that some automobile engines require high test gasoline. We live with those kind of restrictions every day in other areas. (Don't plug that computer into the 220V line!)

Jim
 
CCI is expensive ammo for 22LR - I reserve that for finicky semi-autos.

My K22 S&W eats up Federal Bulk Pack and tubs of Remington Golden Bullets.

9226631607_8c6f4f6007_b.jpg
 
My 66-2, 357mag, would jam/hang when pulling the trigger DA with muzzle up using snap-caps or carts. Dremeled squared edges on recoil sheild, issue gone. Much later found there was a recall for this issue.
 
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