ammunition and guns

N

Newton24b

Moderator
its kinda getting to be a somewhat common thing on forums, and even in magaziens.

person debates on buying a gun, ends up buying because of capacity and caliber. person then feels that the "uber caliber" they picked is useless and start demanding +p and +p+ ammunition for it so they can have a fighting chance.

question is that if that 18 round semi auto in 9mm or 45acp or 40sw is so great, then why do people buy it and instantly decide its not enough and then start finding ways to push bullets harder then intended for the caliber?
 
Marketing and ignorance. People read and believe what the commercial editorialists produce. I still use .38 Special 148 wadcutters for self defense. All the "experts" will tell you that they are woefully inadequate. But then they have never been shot with one. I know better.

+P is, in my opinion, just marketing hype. They are rounds that amateurs cannot shoot accurately under pressure and calibers that are too much for the recoil sensitive average shooter. Placement is everything. I fear mostly the shooter who can put a .22 LR where he wants it.
 
Placement is critical. I absolutely agree with that but why not get the best, premium , hollowpoint ammo for your carry/sd gun? There's enough info out there on many suitable loads in every caliber that everyone should be able to find many good loads for whatever you're carrying. I don't believe in the "magic bullet" but I just don't understand carrying anything but premium ammo. As far as +p goes, in .38 Special or 9mm I carry +p because I think both rounds greatly benefit from the extra FPS and I don't have a problem with the slightly greater recoil. When I carry a .45 ( 75% of the time ) I don't use +p because.....well, it's a .45. Big ol' slow bullets have been getting the job done for quite a while now. To each his own but that's my deal.After reading through gun forums I've concluded that I must be very "recoil INsensitive" though
 
"...why do people buy it and instantly decide its not enough and then start finding ways to push bullets harder then intended for the caliber?"

Because DESIRE is a trap.
 
I think newbies already know what they want to buy. It is something they saw on tv, their uncle or friends probably own, marketing hype etc etc etc.

They will then go onto internet forums to find out if its a good choice. They then only listen to advice that supports their choice and will get very rude if you suggest they look at another product.

Not long after you will see them in gunshops, shooting ranges and forums complaining about the pistols 'jamming'. They then feel terribly betrayed when they are told that the pistol malfunctioned because of the way they hold the gun.

Seen it a thousand times and they all buy the same brand of pistol and they all own all of the T shirts and gear that go with it.
 
It's human nature to believe that we can take a good idea and always make it better. As we all to often see that is not the case.
 
It probably boils down to the concept (unconcious in some people) that if a little is good, more must be better.

Or maybe its "the grass is always greener...."

Why do some people cheat on their spouses? Because they can, and because they want to. Its the primal greed, stronger in some people, to want what they don't have. Sure, it is channeled and focused by individual preferences and other factors, but isn't it really, "I want this, and more of it?"

Marketing and peer pressure play their part, too. Sheep (even sheep with teeth and claws) tend to be herd animals.

Man's only real needs are food and shelter. Everything else is a matter of desire. And boy, do we desire a lot!:D
 
I STILL wouldn't recommend the use of full wadcutters for self-defense. It is PROVEN that hollowpoints are better suited for it.

Placement is key as already mentioned BUT why WOULDN'T you want to use the absolute best thing available to defend your life?

+P and +P+ has it's pros and cons, which is a whole other debate. Also, if you stick with any of the premium HP ammo you will see pretty similar results.

The MAIN reason people BUY new things is because they WANT new things. Plain and simple.
 
...then why do people buy it and instantly decide its not enough and then start finding ways to push bullets harder then intended for the caliber?
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'cause you can't fix stupid! (smile)

Dave
 
for poster 2, if you feel that 38+p and 9mm+p is mandatory as "these rounds really need/benefit" from extra velocity, why did you buy these calibers in the first place?

you obviously feel that 38 and 9mm arent enough in a standard loading, so why did you buy one, and then go buy ammunition that eliminates the main benefits of these calibers and not just get a more powerful cartridge in the first place?
 
They are rounds that amateurs cannot shoot accurately under pressure and calibers that are too much for the recoil sensitive average shooter.
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I would say the gun is fine as is. It is designed to do what it does, and, if you buy quality-does it well.

It's human nature to believe that we can take a good idea and always make it better. As we all to often see that is not the case.
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It is, definately. We demand the absolute most our of our machines. For evidence: guy that dumps s**t-ton of money into his Honda to make it go 150mph:D
 
for poster 2, if you feel that 38+p and 9mm+p is mandatory as "these rounds really need/benefit" from extra velocity, why did you buy these calibers in the first place?

you obviously feel that 38 and 9mm arent enough in a standard loading, so why did you buy one, and then go buy ammunition that eliminates the main benefits of these calibers and not just get a more powerful cartridge in the first place?
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1) Even +p+ 9mm has less felt recoil than a .40 or .45.
2) capacity, size, and weight. Their are no .40's that are as small and lite as the smallest 9mm. For the same weight and size you get more capacity with a 9mm.
 
Newton24b said:
you obviously feel that 38 and 9mm arent enough in a standard loading, so why did you buy one, and then go buy ammunition that eliminates the main benefits of these calibers and not just get a more powerful cartridge in the first place?
Click to expand...


Why would I do that when I can buy premium ammo in +p for common calibers? " Eliminates the main benefits" ? Really? I think you have your "main benefits" confused. If you can't handle the slight increase in recoil associated with +p ammo that's your burden, many of us can control our chosen load/gun combo and practice with it. I rarely carry a 9mm but when I do it's an XDSC and my carry loads ( +p of course ) are very controllable and follow up shots are no problem FOR ME .

And +p in a .38 snubbie is still much more controllable ( for me ) than .357 in the same lightweight gun. And it's a proven "decent" round for self defense. 9mm in it's "standard" loads is nowhere near as effective as many of the premium "+p" loadings. If you feel that's not true that's your business but most people who have actually done even a little research have come to that conclusion. What would you have me buy instead? 357SIG? Can I get a Kahr P9, an XDsc or a Ruger PC9 in 357SIG? Can I run down to the local gun store and buy 357 SIG plinking ammo for $10 like I can 9mm? Nothing wrong with the 357SIG but it's not for me. 40 S&W? Good round and I do carry it sometimes but I don't feel it's really any more effective than 9mm+p and I already have guns for 9mm. By your logic I really need to buy a Desert Eagle in .357 Magnum as my carry gun and be done with all these handy, easily concealable guns once and for all.

As I said before, I don't subscribe to the "magic bullet" mindset , and obviously placement is the most important factor, but I want the best shot placement I can achieve ( ie practice ) with the most effective round I can put on target. Seems simple to me. You use what works for you and I'll use what I can carry, shoot and control well. Just because someone doesn't agree with your point of view doesn't make them stupid, greedy or a "sheep" like some of you seem to think. If your wrists are weak then by all means, use light loads and practice all you can.
 
As a relative newcomer to the handgun caliber SD/HD debate, the general rule of thumb seems to be that your "smaller than their caliber gun" will always be labelled as unreliable, borderline or inadequate.
 
I dont know because its fun to see how far you can push the round. People have always wanted more out of everything throughout history. :) I like having Buffalo Bore 185gr. 45ACP's that SCREAM.
 
I seem to recall that when the ISP carried 9mms, they were issued Federal BPLE 9mm +p+.

Pretty sure I can find other examples.

Additionally, some +p ammo is marketed as "LE only".

Some advocate researching what local LE carry and use (both firearms and ammo) and take at least some cue from that.

That is why there is strawberry ice cream as well as vanilla and chocolate--people like to have options.
 
+p+ seems REDICULOUS to me. +p is enough and like I said I used them sparingly. About 10-15% of shooting and that is just to practice with carry loads and make sure they feed well. +p+ to me just seems like the gun is waiting to explode in your hands :eek:. I can see the +p extra pressure but seriously why take it any further, standard loads are usually good enough. I feel comfortable with WWB or Speer Lawman FMJ 115gr. 9mm or 230gr. 45ACP. Some may laugh about the 9mm obviously its not my 1st choice but I would not feel undergunned. As long as I could hit where I was aiming I would be fine. 230gr. Hardball is also more than adequate. I am a 9mm fan but 45 is my #1 so dont get me wrong but love the saying a 9mm may expand to .67 but a .45 never shrinks. :)
 
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