American Rifleman: Top 10 Handguns of All Time

Yep, they're absolutely meaningless because they don't have the ability to spark informed, indepth, intelligent discussion among those who know firearms.
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For what reason? To what end? What point is there, other than getting involved in a heated peeing contest, is there to debate over what gun goes in what place? Where oh where does it turn into anything but a "my gun is better than your gun" fistfight? Why does one have to be "better" than the other? Better for what? The hunter will pick what he perceives to be the top ten hunting weapons. The mil-surp collector will pick what he perceives to be the top ten mil-surp rifles. The Colt collector will pick what he perceives to be the top ten Colt models and variations, etc., etc., ad nauseum. It's all just opinion and no two are alike. Your top ten list would never match my top ten list and why should it? I shoot the guns I like and what you think has no bearing on that. You shoot the guns you like and what I think has no bearing on that. Like I said, meaningless, it's a "measuring" contest and nothing more.

For some reason, in America, everything has to be a competition. From reality TV shows to music, cars, movies, guns.
 
Oh please. Just what are you HERE for, then?

This list is simply a printed version of the kind of discussions that play out every day here and on dozens of other firearms websites, discussions in which YOU have participated.

So, the question then becomes, what is YOUR purpose for posting at TFL, then, if for no other reason than to get into heated peeing contests?


Let's leave it at this, then.

If this is all you have to contribute, then, in fact, you don't have anything to contribute at all, you're just here to snipe, be pissy, and actually contribute to the kind of peeing matches that you're seemingly so against.

This discussion is about the firearms that are ON the list in American Rifleman, not about the list's purpose, it's ability to make you or anyone else mad, etc.

THIS APPLIES TO EVERYONE...

If you can't discuss the firearms aspect, then your observations are off topic and will be deleted going forward.
 
"as they were merely variations on earlier Colts."

Actually, they weren't, other than the fact that the guns had similar parts and served a similar purpose, their mechanics were quite different.

But, one could also claim that the 1911 shouldn't be on that list, then, becuase it's similar to other designs that were also being developed in Europe independent of Browning.

Or that the High Power should be on the list, since it's simply a variation on the 1911.

The importance for both lies not in their innovation qualities, but in their overall acceptance and their subsequent influence.

It's likely that more Hand Ejector/Hand Ejector direct copies have been made than any other type handgun. They were, for over 50 years, THE standard for police use in the United States.

Well over 1 million of them were made during WW II and supplied to combatant nations, in many cases being used in combat.

The Hand Ejector also, as the article indicates, served at the initial platform for several of the most popular cartridges of all time -- the .38 Special, the .357 Magnum, and the .44 Magnum.

Colt's revolvers, for whatever reason, never approached that kind of acceptance.


But, if you're going to use the criteria that one particular gun doesn't belong on the list because it's a variant of another, earlier gun, you'd end up with a list of fewer than five.

1. 1911 - already talked about that. Out.

2, 10. Hand Ejector, talked about. Out.

3. Glock 17, neither striker fired or polymer construction were innovative. Out.

4. S&W Number 1. This one comes a lot closer to being new and innovative. First use of the bored through cylinder, first use of a break action to access the cylinder. But, the cylinder indexing was dreamed up by Colt. Out.

5. Volcanic. This one may be the first true original on the list. Tentatively in.

6. Colt's SAA. Used the bored through cylinder, which was invented by a Colt employee, refused by Colt, sold to Smith & Wesson, and introduced in their Number 1. Out.

7. Walthers... These may be innovative enough to be on the list. But, blowback operation was pioneered by many others before the Walther came along. Out.

8. Mauser C96. As far as I know, this was an innovative design in all aspects. Tentatively in.

9. Browning High Power. Same as the Colt 1911. Out.

So, there you have it. The list of the two tentatively greatest handguns of all time.

Greatness isn't just about technical innovation. It's also about acceptance, longevity, and utility. When you start thinking like that, and being bound by it, you're not going to get to the heart of understanding why some handguns are still in common use after more than a century.
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Entertaining, as absurd as it is. :)
 
I thought it was a bit odd that they separated the magnum from the other S&W hand-ejectors.

1911: Does that really surprise anyone? After almost 100 years, it is still the one almost all semi-auto pistols are compared against.

S&W hand-ejectors: No big surprise here, either. Same thing, except for revolvers.

The broomhandle is a bit of a surprise, IMO. It had a lot of dead-end characteristics.
 
Well, Rick you're the one who made the original call that essentially said "if it's not a 100% new, innovative, never before thought of technological leap forward, then it can't be on the list" and applied it in a very selective manner.

If that's not the height of absurdity, what then, is? Focusing solely on technological innovation as the breaking point, as I noted earlier, completely ignores the most important contributions and aspects of a firearm.

The number of TRULY technological innovative firearms is staggeringly small compared to all of the hundreds, if not thousands, of designs that are out there.

Even the original Colt revolver wasn't truly innovative becuase, as the story goes, Colt got the idea for the mechanism from watch a ratchet mechanism on a ship's wheel.
 
Rick you're the one who made the original call that essentially said "if it's not a 100% new, innovative, never before thought of technological leap forward, then it can't be on the list"
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Did I say that? Methinks you protest too loudly . . . got a big collection of Smith revolvers at home, and feeling a little defensive? That's probably closer to the mark than your observation(s). Keep going like this, and you may have to close the thread. ;)
 
I saw this list on AR's TV show....here were my suggestions....

1. Colt Patterson...1st successful combat revolver / 1st successful repeating handgun.

2. Smith & Wesson Hand Ejector Revolvers

3. H&K VP-70....demonstrated polymer frame as practical.

4. Smith & Wesson Model One Revolver

5. The M1911, M1911A1 pistols and variants

6. Colt's Single Action Army Revolver

7. Walther PP, PPK, PPK/S Pistols

8. P08 Luger...1st practical combat auto.

9. Browning Hi Power Pistol

10. Smith & Wesson Registered Magnum Revolver
 
The List for Inventors?

It appeared to me when I read my copy that this is a list of innovation with some other spotty reasons tossed in. As many have already mentioned and the article itself mentions these were the innovations (most of them) that moved the pistol/hand gun technology of the time. I read the article and enjoyed the information for what it's worth. Learned some stuff I didn't know (always a bonus to learn new stuff!!). I thought it very interseting that Winchester and Henry got the idea of the lever action repeater from an old clunky pistol design!

It would be interesting though for The Rifleman to take a vote among members of the 10 most "popular" hand guns. I would vote for the T/C Contender somewhere in there. And of course they could do the list from many different angles. Top Self Defense, Top Concealed, Top Hunter, Top Sillouette, etsetera etsetera ad infinitum blah blah...

Hey, just be glad you can still get em...
 
I'm extrapolating for you, Rick, and I think I'm hitting very close to the intent of your original statement.

Your quote:

"I wouldn't include any of the Smith hand ejectors, as they were merely variations on earlier Colts."

The facts:

The S&W lockwork was not a mere variation on earlier Colt lockwork. There were significant design differences.

Yes, both shared a swing-out cylinder. So?

If you wish to get technical, the bored through cylinder on the Peacemaker was lifted from Smith & Wesson, as was the concept of the self-contained metallic cartridge, so the Peacemaker should be on the list, neh?

How about you address the points I've raised, instead of questioning my motives/feelings?

That smacks of transferrance and redirection, which appear to be desperate attempts to get around a statement that you know has no factual merit.

You've also failed to address the many other reasons why the Hand Ejectors deserve a place on the list:

Utility

Acceptance

Longevity

Service

Adaptability

You've ignored those points.

Why?

You're also ignoring the point that very little true, ground breaking technological innovation exists in the firearms arena. As I've pointed out, almost all of the firearms on that list borrowed heavily from earlier firearms from other designers.

So why are they on that list, then?

Could it be their Utility, Acceptance, Longevity, Service, and Adaptability?

In short, you've not given a convincing reason for why the S&W Hand Ejectors should be removed from the list, and you certainly haven't presented even a modicum of a case for why the Colts, which apparently were there first with a list of salient features, should be on the list.

Don't you think it's time to do so?

Or can't you?
 
For what reason? To what end? What point is there, other than getting involved in a heated peeing contest, is there to debate over what gun goes in what place?
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For the same reason we have pre-season college football polls -- to entertain ourselves while we kill time waiting for the real action to begin.

I thought the Ruger Mark pistols would make it as well. I would also have to put the Colt Patterson Revolving Pistol.
 
I'm extrapolating for you, Rick, and I think I'm hitting very close to the intent of your original statement.

Your quote:

"I wouldn't include any of the Smith hand ejectors, as they were merely variations on earlier Colts."

The facts:

The S&W lockwork was not a mere variation on earlier Colt lockwork. There were significant design differences.

Yes, both shared a swing-out cylinder. So?

If you wish to get technical, the bored through cylinder on the Peacemaker was lifted from Smith & Wesson, as was the concept of the self-contained metallic cartridge, so the Peacemaker should be on the list, neh?

How about you address the points I've raised, instead of questioning my motives/feelings?

That smacks of transferrance and redirection, which appear to be desperate attempts to get around a statement that you know has no factual merit.

You've also failed to address the many other reasons why the Hand Ejectors deserve a place on the list:

Utility

Acceptance

Longevity

Service

Adaptability

You've ignored those points.

Why?

You're also ignoring the point that very little true, ground breaking technological innovation exists in the firearms arena. As I've pointed out, almost all of the firearms on that list borrowed heavily from earlier firearms from other designers.

So why are they on that list, then?

Could it be their Utility, Acceptance, Longevity, Service, and Adaptability?

In short, you've not given a convincing reason for why the S&W Hand Ejectors should be removed from the list, and you certainly haven't presented even a modicum of a case for why the Colts, which apparently were there first with a list of salient features, should be on the list.

Don't you think it's time to do so?

Or can't you?
__________________
NEVER delude yourself into thinking that "Hey, it's never happened to me, so it never will happen! I'm the golden boy!"

Fate is one twisted bitch with a seriously warped sense of humor.
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Utility? Where's the utility in a Broomhandle Mauser?
Longevity? How long did that Volcanic "pistol" hang around?
Adaptability? The Colt Patterson was adapted into what, exactly?
Clearly, those are not the criteria by which the guns on the list were judged. I think you are dodging the fact that you missed the intent of the top-10 list (see KMyerK98's post above; he gets it), and are scrambling around trying to make a case for a gun that is a favorite of yours, but really shouldn't make the cut. You just can't let go of that DA Smith revo, when it's pretty obvious that it owes its very existence to the design of prior Colt revolvers. If this were a mere popularity contest, I'd be all for the Smiths, large and small, as they've endured largely unchanged for over 100 years and are still going strong. I was actually sort of making your argument for you, when I suggested the Beretta 92 might better represent the DA/SA auto pistol ilk than do the PP/PPK, as that would allow the also-derivative Smiths under the same theory, but if we're looking for innovation, and designs that propelled the handgun forward, you gotta admit that the DA Smith was a me-too design at the time of its introduction, even if it endures today. I have a K-frame, and two N-frames, so I'm hardly a trolling Smith-basher, but I understand the history. You are trying to denigrate every gun on the list, to make your pet choice look better? That's what I'm seeing. I accept the majority of the guns for their significance, but I'm not blinded by devotion to any particular design.
 
Clearly, those are not the criteria by which the guns on the list were judged.
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Rick you're asking for clear objective standards when there obviously are none. Not in this list not in any.
Just because the compilers of the poll put one gun in because it was innovative, doesn't mean that that is the only criteria they used.
What do they consider a handgun? well they don't say that either, because they have individual handguns such as the Browning Hi Power and families of handguns like the 1911 and it's descendants.

The only objective thing in the poll is they have the numbers 1-10 in the right order.
Pointing out that lists aren't internally consistant is a bit like pointing out that the Edsel wasn't a very successful car.
 
It's some ones "opinion" there is no "Top Ten" I don't think realistically you could come up with a list.
Ya shoots what ya like" and the hell with the rest. :rolleyes:
 
They got the details on the Hi-power wrong. It wasn't released until a decade after JMB died. He had started working on it but the gun he was working on was a high capacity striker fired design. It shared nothing with the 1911 because that was still covered under the patents owned by Colt. After his death those patents expired and were incorporated into the final Hi Power design. Saying JMB designed the Hi Power is simply not true. Dieudonné Saive designed the Hi Power based on JMB's work. He incorporated ideas from the Hi Power design of Browning and the 1911.
 
There's a difference between "innovative" designs and innovative designs that had a lasting impact. Here are some pistols not listed that have very innovative designs:


Sharps 4-barreled pepperboxes.
Lemon-squeezer, chicago palm pistol and other variants
Webley-Fosbery Automatic Revolver
Steyr GB
stinger pen gun
G.R.A.D .22 knife gun
Borchardt c-93 (previously mentioned)

What I found odd about the NRA list is that it didn't really have any focus. What was the criteria? Are we talking about unique inovative pistol designed that are still being produced and are in service today? Historic design breakthroughs? Military side arms? There's an entire grouping of top-break revolvers that were once prolific and revolutionary as far as civilian ownership of pocket pistols, but have long been considered obsolete - should they have been mentioned?
 
I'm not as learned as some.....

As the title says, but I agree with posters that put in the CZ75, Baretta 92, Mark 1 and Highpower.
SAA has to stay and, I know some may laugh, but Rugers Vaquero or Blackhawk that took the SAA to the next level of power is big for me.
Leave the glock in, leave Smith's revolvers.
Just my opinion, but as my wife says, " what the hell do you know anyway!! "
God I love marriage.....
 
If innovation were the sole determinant, than the Gyrojet and the Dardick deserve places of high prominence, don't they? Of course, we know how successful those firearms turned out to be.
 
#11. Kimber, because they made all the other 1911 makers sit up and look at their business plans and methods. They showed that it was possible to sell tens of thousands of 1911-style guns a year and make money.

:)
 
OK, I'll bite: Why should the Ruger Mk I, etc., be on the top ten?

I like the gun, but would think that IF a Ruger belongs on the list it should be one of the investment-cast, single-action designs that kept quality plinking and hunting handguns affordable for the masses.

While getting Ruger his initial commercial success, ISTM that the MK I wasn't innovative, just nice looking and inexpensive. The company didn't make any other auto pistols until many years later.
 
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