American rifleman article: light rifle technique
- Thread starter dyl
- Start date
For those that aren't welded to shooing as voodoo, you might want to read this:
http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Hold+that+Forend.html
It goes into way more depth than I have interest in typing on how fore end control, or lack thereof, affects observed group size, why, what the techniques are, and the history of how certain shooting schools started doing it wrong.
http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Hold+that+Forend.html
It goes into way more depth than I have interest in typing on how fore end control, or lack thereof, affects observed group size, why, what the techniques are, and the history of how certain shooting schools started doing it wrong.
big d said:
It is your application of physics principles that several have found dubious, not the principles themselves.
The techniques in the link are ones kraigwy has espoused as they pertain to slings. The article doesn't suggest an attempt to hold a barrel down, though it does suggest using downward pressure on the scope, as one of the first few posters here also suggested.
big d said:
Let's see.
big d said:
If you are pushing the rifle down into a stationary object, both the scope and barrel are options, and they are both brought up on both pages of this thread.
Is it...
?big d said:
The article you linked notes the value of a tightly slinged position. In that position the sling pulls the in front of the non-trigger arm downward.
That still leaves the question of why the slinged technique would give better groups in those positions.
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Folks the sling does not necessarily hold down the rifle. It holds the rifle to the shoulder. The rifle rest on the palm of the hand. This support hand does not grip the rifle.
Its gravity and bone support. Gravity pushes the forearm down on the "un-griped" hand. The elbow is on the ground. Or in the kneeling position, the elbow rest on the knew (not on the knee per se but the fleshy portion on the upper side of the knee, or depending on the person, the elbow might be forward of the knee where the fleshy part of the upper arm rest on the knee.
In setting well its similar to kneeling but both elbows contact both knees similar to kneeling.
In standing he sling isn't used, the rifle rest on the supporting (un-gripped) hand and the shoulder. Again avoiding the use of muscles as much as possible, gravity pushes down on the support arm that should be rested against the side.
I read the article and came away with the idea the author hasn't shoot much.
We can argue tell the cows come home. Or we can go to any rifle match and see the positions used. Paying attention to those winning these matches.
Newton rules of physics not withstanding you wont find people holding their rifles down either by pushing on the barrel or the scope.
Its gravity and bone support. Gravity pushes the forearm down on the "un-griped" hand. The elbow is on the ground. Or in the kneeling position, the elbow rest on the knew (not on the knee per se but the fleshy portion on the upper side of the knee, or depending on the person, the elbow might be forward of the knee where the fleshy part of the upper arm rest on the knee.
In setting well its similar to kneeling but both elbows contact both knees similar to kneeling.
In standing he sling isn't used, the rifle rest on the supporting (un-gripped) hand and the shoulder. Again avoiding the use of muscles as much as possible, gravity pushes down on the support arm that should be rested against the side.
I read the article and came away with the idea the author hasn't shoot much.
We can argue tell the cows come home. Or we can go to any rifle match and see the positions used. Paying attention to those winning these matches.
Newton rules of physics not withstanding you wont find people holding their rifles down either by pushing on the barrel or the scope.
kraigwy said:
I shoot rifle recreationally, and I would assess myself as a below average rifle shooter, but I do use a sling standing. The rifle does rest in my left palm with my left arm resting against my torso. The sling is tight enough that I can take my right hand off the rifle entirely and it will still stay in place without my left hand gripping it. The pull downward on the front sling swivel balances out the weight of the other half of the rifle. In shooting, my right hand is only touching the rifle a bit to keep it stationary relative to the trigger.
It won't bruise my ego for you tell me that I am doing incorrectly. I've practiced both with and without a sling, and my position with the sling seems more stable.
Kraigwy, this is my last post on the subject. The article you supposedly read showed what sort of group size reductions fore end control provides. It provided direct commentary from a (perhaps historically, THE) top shooter about the extreme level of front end pull down used in the process of winning a competition - something you implied no one does. You have the gall to imply that those who are actually knowledgeable on this subject "don't shoot much" - despite the fact that the article was full of people who shot more than much telling you you're wrong.
You've had the physics explained to you. Repeatedly.
At this point, I've gone so far above what's justified to try to set your misinformation straight it's ridiculous. Hopefully some new shooters will benefit at least.
You've had the physics explained to you. Repeatedly.
At this point, I've gone so far above what's justified to try to set your misinformation straight it's ridiculous. Hopefully some new shooters will benefit at least.
Kraigwy, in the disciplines you note is use of a sling in the standing position prohibited by rule?
My standing position is about like this fellow's...
http://truthaboutguns-zippykid.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/IMG_2529.jpg
...employing the sling not to hold the rifle down under recoil, but to make the biggest variable in the equation, me, less flexible and wobbly, and let me remain at rest while keeping the sights on target. Isn't that the same rationale for wearing a restrictive coat?
My standing position is about like this fellow's...
http://truthaboutguns-zippykid.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/IMG_2529.jpg
...employing the sling not to hold the rifle down under recoil, but to make the biggest variable in the equation, me, less flexible and wobbly, and let me remain at rest while keeping the sights on target. Isn't that the same rationale for wearing a restrictive coat?
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"...until the bullet no longer dwells inside the barrel..." Which is measured in microseconds. Very much doubt holding anything down will make any difference. You won't be pushing down on a scope if you're shooting off hand either.
The 'Field' generally means hunting. That what you mean? When you're hunting, it's best to use any advantage you can. Like that big rock over there and your hat to avoid an off hand shot if you can. If you can't, knowing how to quickly use your sling to aid your stability is a good thing.
They really disallow slings for off hand? That NRA? Just curious.
"...Newton rules of physics..." It's not just a rule. It a law. snicker.
The 'Field' generally means hunting. That what you mean? When you're hunting, it's best to use any advantage you can. Like that big rock over there and your hat to avoid an off hand shot if you can. If you can't, knowing how to quickly use your sling to aid your stability is a good thing.
They really disallow slings for off hand? That NRA? Just curious.
"...Newton rules of physics..." It's not just a rule. It a law. snicker.
In high speed photography of rifle barrels: As the bullet travels down the barrel, the barrel has an S whip movement. Any change in pressure on the barrel, will change zero.
A good tip that I learned from Carlos Hathcock's book, was to have the firing hand held with a slight rearward pull on the rifle stock
Be aware that the trigger finger pad has to be placed evenly across the face of the trigger, with the trigger being pressed straight back.
My right firing hand thumb is usually placed along the right side of the receiver or stock and not crossed over the stock --- because that method can reduce the chance of a flinch. Of course, the pistol grip rifle has to be held differently --- and I have to cross my firing hand thumb across the stock when I shoot my SMLE --- because the bolt is so far back, it would hit my thumb during recoil, if I held it on the right side of the stock.
I use both the offhand and standing positions. Besides the one with just triangular bone support and total relaxation...you want a field stance where you can control that gun, {especially for rapid fire}, with an aggressive support hand grip of the firearm, by locking your wrist downward at a 45 degree angle, with your thumb pointed down the barrel towards the target; along with both downward an rearward pressure. Some people even use forward pressure of the support hand.
You'll have to hold the rifle tighter in windy conditions.
Call your shots. The recoil impulse should settle the rifle back roughly to your original sight picture, when you first cracked-off the shot.
If you close your eyes when you crack-off the shot...you have a slight flinch.
A good tip that I learned from Carlos Hathcock's book, was to have the firing hand held with a slight rearward pull on the rifle stock
Be aware that the trigger finger pad has to be placed evenly across the face of the trigger, with the trigger being pressed straight back.
My right firing hand thumb is usually placed along the right side of the receiver or stock and not crossed over the stock --- because that method can reduce the chance of a flinch. Of course, the pistol grip rifle has to be held differently --- and I have to cross my firing hand thumb across the stock when I shoot my SMLE --- because the bolt is so far back, it would hit my thumb during recoil, if I held it on the right side of the stock.
I use both the offhand and standing positions. Besides the one with just triangular bone support and total relaxation...you want a field stance where you can control that gun, {especially for rapid fire}, with an aggressive support hand grip of the firearm, by locking your wrist downward at a 45 degree angle, with your thumb pointed down the barrel towards the target; along with both downward an rearward pressure. Some people even use forward pressure of the support hand.
You'll have to hold the rifle tighter in windy conditions.
Call your shots. The recoil impulse should settle the rifle back roughly to your original sight picture, when you first cracked-off the shot.
If you close your eyes when you crack-off the shot...you have a slight flinch.
reynolds357
New member
This is the same argument hashed out years ago on the subject of how to shoot elephant rifles from the bench. Elmer Keith was a proponent of holding his off hand on top of the barrel and pull/pushing it down into the rest. That is the most accurate method I found for shooting my .458 Win mag and my .460 WBY. That is not how I shoot my varmint and bench rest rifles, but it sure works for the big bores.
reynolds357
New member
Erno, well aware of that info. I build my own Bench rest rifles. I build most of my hunting rifles. When dealing with a rifle that has heavy recoil, the barrel moving away from point of aim before the bullet leaves the barrel is a much more significant variable in accuracy than are harmonics.
Got some folks talking past each other.
First of all, recoil begins as soon as the bullet begins to move. It has to, that's what Newton's law is all about. Unless the rifle is clamped in such a way that it can not move at all then it must move as soon as the bullet starts moving.
This can be readily verified via slow-motion videos--which is a good thing since that's what science (physics) tells us must happen.
But does that motion affect the bullet's trajectory? MAYBE.
If the recoil of the rifle is straight back--the muzzle doesn't rise or drop or move to the left or right then there will be no effect on the trajectory.
If the recoil motion ends up causing the rifle's muzzle to rise, drop or move left or right then there will be an effect on the trajectory.
Let's say that the muzzle does move during recoil. Does that mean the rifle won't be accurate? Actually the rifle can be very accurate even with the recoil motion causing muzzle rise. The recoil motion happens very fast and the forces involved are high enough that it's difficult to effectively resist them in the very short amount of time that the bullet takes to exit the barrel. What that means is that the motion due to recoil will usually be very consistent. Even though the recoil affects the trajectory, it affects it the same way every time. So the bullet hits in the same place on the target every time and the rifle is very accurate in spite of the motion of the muzzle during recoil before the bullet exits.
In revolvers, the amount of muzzle rise due to recoil is so significant that it's often easy to note that the line of the sights is aiming significantly higher than the barrel is. That is, the barrel is pointed noticeably downward when the sights are aligned on the level. The motion of muzzle rise drives the barrel upwards as the bullet moves down the barrel, and by the time it exits, the bore is pointing where the sights were pointing. Because the barrel is fixed to the frame and the frame is restrained by the shooter's hand below the bore, as soon as the recoil motion starts, the muzzle also starts to rise.
This effect isn't seen as much in locked breech autopistols with floating barrels because during the time the bullet is in the barrel, the barrel (and slide) are recoiling nearly straight backwards. Muzzle rise doesn't start until after the bullet has left the barrel. The slide/barrel start moving straight back immediately but the muzzle doesn't rise until after the bullet's gone.
Here's a diagram I made that shows the relationships between sight line and bore line for a revolver and several autopistols. Note that the revolver bore is pointed downward compared to the sights while the autopistol bores align well with the sights.
But revolvers are sort of an extreme case. The gun is relatively light and is restrained only by the shooters hand which is well below the bore. That results in a lot of muzzle rise very early in the recoil cycle.
Rifles tend to recoil straight back without a lot of muzzle rise because the stock transfers the recoil to the shooter's shoulder which is pretty close to being right behind the muzzle. What little muzzle rise there is tends to be pretty consistent given the way rifles are held. So it's not much of an issue except in extreme cases.
So yes, recoil motion starts with the bullet still in the bore. Has to. But that doesn't imply inaccuracy. It's not even a given that the recoil motion will affect the trajectory-- if the rifle recoils straight back with no muzzle rise then there's no effect. If there is muzzle rise, it tends to be consistent from shot to shot which means that once the rifle is zeroed the consistent effect is taken into account and is a non-issue.
First of all, recoil begins as soon as the bullet begins to move. It has to, that's what Newton's law is all about. Unless the rifle is clamped in such a way that it can not move at all then it must move as soon as the bullet starts moving.
This can be readily verified via slow-motion videos--which is a good thing since that's what science (physics) tells us must happen.
But does that motion affect the bullet's trajectory? MAYBE.
If the recoil of the rifle is straight back--the muzzle doesn't rise or drop or move to the left or right then there will be no effect on the trajectory.
If the recoil motion ends up causing the rifle's muzzle to rise, drop or move left or right then there will be an effect on the trajectory.
Let's say that the muzzle does move during recoil. Does that mean the rifle won't be accurate? Actually the rifle can be very accurate even with the recoil motion causing muzzle rise. The recoil motion happens very fast and the forces involved are high enough that it's difficult to effectively resist them in the very short amount of time that the bullet takes to exit the barrel. What that means is that the motion due to recoil will usually be very consistent. Even though the recoil affects the trajectory, it affects it the same way every time. So the bullet hits in the same place on the target every time and the rifle is very accurate in spite of the motion of the muzzle during recoil before the bullet exits.
In revolvers, the amount of muzzle rise due to recoil is so significant that it's often easy to note that the line of the sights is aiming significantly higher than the barrel is. That is, the barrel is pointed noticeably downward when the sights are aligned on the level. The motion of muzzle rise drives the barrel upwards as the bullet moves down the barrel, and by the time it exits, the bore is pointing where the sights were pointing. Because the barrel is fixed to the frame and the frame is restrained by the shooter's hand below the bore, as soon as the recoil motion starts, the muzzle also starts to rise.
This effect isn't seen as much in locked breech autopistols with floating barrels because during the time the bullet is in the barrel, the barrel (and slide) are recoiling nearly straight backwards. Muzzle rise doesn't start until after the bullet has left the barrel. The slide/barrel start moving straight back immediately but the muzzle doesn't rise until after the bullet's gone.
Here's a diagram I made that shows the relationships between sight line and bore line for a revolver and several autopistols. Note that the revolver bore is pointed downward compared to the sights while the autopistol bores align well with the sights.
But revolvers are sort of an extreme case. The gun is relatively light and is restrained only by the shooters hand which is well below the bore. That results in a lot of muzzle rise very early in the recoil cycle.
Rifles tend to recoil straight back without a lot of muzzle rise because the stock transfers the recoil to the shooter's shoulder which is pretty close to being right behind the muzzle. What little muzzle rise there is tends to be pretty consistent given the way rifles are held. So it's not much of an issue except in extreme cases.
So yes, recoil motion starts with the bullet still in the bore. Has to. But that doesn't imply inaccuracy. It's not even a given that the recoil motion will affect the trajectory-- if the rifle recoils straight back with no muzzle rise then there's no effect. If there is muzzle rise, it tends to be consistent from shot to shot which means that once the rifle is zeroed the consistent effect is taken into account and is a non-issue.