American Made Products And Patriotism

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This is a good conversation...

For me, it's more of a "psychological" issue than an objective problem. I grew up in the cold-war military, trained to recognize friendly vs enemy forces and weapons. Anybody else remember the recognition "playing cards" were were given in the Army in the 80s? Of course, the principal enemy was the Soviets, and their AK-47s.

When I see Soviet/Soviet-ish weapons, I do not covet them, probably for the above reason, I do not know for sure but thats probably it. I'm sure a shrink could pull it out of me.....
 
MLeake that pretty much sums up my feelings on this. There are times when buying American is not possible and I use foreign made and assembled electronics, and Lord knows what else, just like the rest of us. It is a global economy, but American jobs and products are the engine that drives our economy.
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You know, the funny thing is that some foreign products are more American than American products, such as the Toyota Tundra pickup truck.
http://www.tundraheadquarters.com/blog/2010/06/25/toyota-tundra-most-american/
http://content.usatoday.com/communi...most-american-cars-are-from-japanese-makers/1
 
The things that are still produced in the US are widely recognized as being high quality around the world.
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Having spent several years living overseas in both Asia and Latin America, I have to disagree. Generally when I heard people over seas talk about quality they talk about Europe. Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Finland, etc. In most foreign countries people will will open up a cell phone and see where it is made before buying it. Often the cell phones made in Finland have a 10%+ premium over those from Asia IN Asia for instance.
Dentists in Mexico only want German equipment.
John Deere and CAT were about the only brands that I found very well liked outside of food products. BIG SUVs or trucks from the US auto manufacturers also, but mostly b/c no one else really makes the larger vehicles made by US automakers.

Consumer reports does reasonably thorough testing and is relatively objective. You will see their ratings are dominated by foreign cars well past 2000. The Japanese took a couple decades to adopt Demning Principles and it has take US manufacturers the same.
 
DNS there is no question that you are right regarding foreign vs domestic products. Is a 'big three' vehicle assembled in Mexico of more value to the US economy than a Toyota made here? Probably not. Toyota (and others) have spent huge amounts of money here and employ many Americans at a decent wage. I do have some concerns regarding foreign companies owning such a high percentage of those manufacturing products here in America. Disproportionate foreign ownership of real estate and debt is also a concern. I don't pretend to have the answer to this problem. I believe it is largely a political issue that won't be solved here.

I don't fault anyone for buying foreign made weapons, trucks, cheese, or anything else. As I said in my quoted post, I use plenty of imported stuff. While there are many foreign companies that make fine guns at good value, the new guns I buy will be American made.
 
Healthy competition is the basis of a capitalist economy. As such, I buy the gun, car, computer, or whatever other product you wish to insert that best meets my needs and wants for the most reasonable price.

The simple fact is that competition breeds innovation and improvement. The more competition you have, the more innovation and improvement will occur. Since automobiles have already been brought up, the automotive industry is a prime example of this. Prior to the 1960's and 1970's, imported cars were both rare and relatively expensive and, as such, Ford, General Motors, and Chrysler had very little competition in the American market besides each other. The result was that American cars, by and large, got poor gas mileage, were comparatively unreliable, and most were ready for the salvage yard by about 100,000 miles. Once foreign makers like Volkswagen, Honda, Toyota, and Nissan began importing cars that got better gas mileage, were more reliable and durable, and cost the same or less than a comparable American car, the U.S. auto makers were forced to play catch-up and improve their own product. The end result is that today most cars, regardless of their country of origin, get better gas mileage and are more reliable and durable than those of decades past. Had we all staunchly refused to buy anything but an American-made car, we'd all likely still be driving vehicles with low-compression engines that get 10mpg, rust out after a year or two, and need their engines overhauled at 50K miles.
 
Healthy competition is the basis of a capitalist economy. As such, I buy the gun, car, computer, or whatever other product you wish to insert that best meets my needs and wants for the most reasonable price.
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I agree that competition can be a healthy thing. To use a cliche though, the playing field is not always level. When foreign nations subsidize companies to make them competitive here, or violate basic human rights to insure lower costs then it is unhealthy competition regardless of quality. Price and quality are only part of the equation IMO.

You are right that American car makers had to be drug kicking and screaming to making changes in their methods, materials, and technology. I'm not saying competition is a bad thing, just not the only thing.
 
K Mac said:
... To use a cliche though, the playing field is not always level. When foreign nations subsidize companies to make them competitive here, ...
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This point is a good one. But it is forgivable practice. In international markets it has long been the practice of governments to support their home industries. What is unforgivable is when a gov't subsidizes a foreign industry in direct competition with a home-based industry, as the American gov't has done.

That said, and looking for a firearms connection here, ... "Buying American" has never been a barrier to the American gun buyer looking for the best gun for his/her purpose. American gun owners were buying H&K, Walther, Benelli and Berretta when it wasn't generally popular to buy foreign. Truthfully, they have been doing it since before it was even an issue.

I am no student of international consumer marketing, but automobiles and firearms have been right there from the beginning.

One thing I see in this thread ... we choose based not on patriotism, as much as we may try to buy American when possible, but more on function and suitability for purpose.

That is the way it should be: Answering customer needs and desires.
 
Hmmmm .... (evaluates origin of firearms in safe):

Italy
Germany
USA
USA
USA
Belgium

I try to support American labor, local business, and made in USA whenever feasible. Once in awhile I find a foreign made 'something or other' that just makes a bit more sense or just lights my fire a bit more than a USA counterpart. Ex-Navy, Persian Gulf Veteran FWIW
 
That said, and looking for a firearms connection here, ... "Buying American" has never been a barrier to the American gun buyer looking for the best gun for his/her purpose. American gun owners were buying H&K, Walther, Benelli and Berretta when it wasn't generally popular to buy foreign. Truthfully, they have been doing it since before it was even an issue.
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Right, why buy a product that does not support you? If the American made product doesn't meet your needs, then there is no reason you should spend your money on it.
 
It just occurred to me that the folks who built most of the guns I have are long retired, if not deceased. Does it matter where they were made any more?
 
Having spent several years living overseas in both Asia and Latin America, I have to disagree. Generally when I heard people over seas talk about quality they talk about Europe. Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Finland, etc. In most foreign countries people will will open up a cell phone and see where it is made before buying it. Often the cell phones made in Finland have a 10%+ premium over those from Asia IN Asia for instance.
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Who makes cell phones in the US? No one that I know of.

THE THINGS THAT ARE STILL MADE IN AMERICA.

You named several in your posts. There are plenty others. As I noted consumer goods are generally not one of them.
 
There is some question in my mind as to what patriotism is but I rather doubt it has much to do with where the products you purchase and consume originate. You can be a patriot and a communist. You can be a patriot and a democrat, maybe even a republican. I'm not at all sure if you can be a patriot and necessarily be a loyalist, a rather forgotten term, appropriate only under certain conditions anyway. Likewise, I'm not sure that serving in the armed forces qualifies you as a patriot. Questions abound; does being a patriot make you a nationalist? Does it mean you believe in capitalism, even if you have no capital? Does it mean you believe in democracy or theocracy or monarchy, etc., etc., etc.

I imagine being a patriot becomes especially difficult during times of civil war or when national boundaries are moved around or when part of a country breaks away or tries to. All I know is, it's easy to say one is a patriot.
 
From Dictionary.com:
Patriot:
1. a person who loves, supports, and defends his or her country and its interests with devotion.
2. a person who regards himself or herself as a defender, especially of individual rights, against presumed interference by the federal government.
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Blue Train I think an argument can be made that by definition number one above, how people spend their money (on guns, so as not to cross the line into politics) could indicate their level of support for their country.:D There is certainly some tension between the two definitions...:)
 
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I would go along with the first definition. It is love of country, more specifically the country where you were born. It has to be followed up with something active, which we might call good works, something I read about in an old book.

The second is rediculous.
 
So, BT, you don't think the French Resistance (fighting the Vichy government) or Yugoslavian Partisans were patriots? I mean, that would seem to be "rediculous" by your definition...
 
No, quite the opposite. They were the same as Soviet guerillas fighting for their own country against foreign invaders. And besides, the French were not fighting the Vichy, they were fighting the Germans.

It isn't patriotism that is so difficult but rather loyalty that is sometimes strained when there are changes in government that you perhaps don't agree with. French soldiers in some overseas postings during the Vichy regime felt honor bound to resist the allies, which they did in North Africa and in Syria, although the resistance was more token than real. French soldiers still in (unoccupied) France were never called upon to make war against their own citizens. Even under the terms of the armistice in 1940, the French continued to have a small army.

Patriotism and loyalty were also issues in other countries such as Yugoslavia that had competing governments. Yet Yugoslavia never received much outside help in the form of troops and pretty much managed by itself. I have to speak well of (what used to be) Yugoslavia since there's now a Serbian in the family now.

My term for what is defined in definition 2 is "rebel." And I'm from a border town in a border state.
 
Definition two:
a person who regards himself or herself as a defender, especially of individual rights, against presumed interference by the federal government.
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My term for what is defined in definition 2 is "rebel." And I'm from a border town in a border state.
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Blue Train,

As Americans we have the responsibility to defend our "unalienable" rights to "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." The potential for interference by the federal government is why the 2A is at the foundation of our system of government. The rebels who were our founding fathers understood this very well. I am not advocating anarchy or revolution. I am saying that we cannot just dismiss this definition of patriotism. I am familiar with the old book you mentioned. I refer to it often.:)

As an aside, I don't think place of birth is a requirement in the definition of patriotism, or the description of a patriot. Peace.
 
I think it has to do with where you were born entirely. It is love of country. Whatever you think of the government is entirely beside the point.
 
This was worth keeping open as long as the discussion was primarily about American products, i.e., firearms. It looks like we have gotten off track.

Closed.
 
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