The first time I saw this chat, my thought was that I clean all my rifles and pistols pretty well. During the deer season however there'll be one or two that I leave lightly fouled after they are sighted in. Well, based on new info I have, thanks to this forum, I found that my rifles are not anywhere near as clean as I had thought. My bores, to my mind, were shiny and clean, but when I used some of that new water based copper cleaner (thanks to info from Unclenick), I found that I had plenty of copper still in the barrel. I really was shocked. After cleaning my Ruger Hawkeye 223, which is a good shooter, I went to my range and put 7 out of 8 into the same ragged and enlarged hole (about 1/2 inch center to center, counting the one flyer in the measurement). It wasn't shooting that good prior to cleaning, but maybe I'm shooting better than I was a few days ago. I can't say that taking the copper out really made it shoot better. All I can really say is that there was still plenty of copper in what I thought was a clean barrel.