am I the only person that's heard of 45/80?

Saw a Winchester 1876 lever action in 45-60 last week end. It was a large rifle compared to what I'm use to seeing.

First I had heard of it. It's my understanding they use to sell brass a standard length, and you cut it down to 45-60,70,90 etc.
 
Hello, tahunua001. I have seen such a rifle. It was at one of the better quality antique arms shows about 20 years ago. Trapdoor Springfield with a longer (higher) than normal sight staff. (not tang sight). Price was pretty hefty. I understand the arsenal was trying to come up with a target type rifle able to compete in the long-range military type matches at Creedmoor and Seagirt.
 
"It's my understanding they use to sell brass a standard length, and you cut it down to 45-60,70,90 etc."

That was in the 1960s or 1970s. "Blank" brass was available from a company called Bell Extrusion Laboratories, Ltd. They provided a number of differerent basic cases that could be shortened, necked, etc. to provide cartridges for quite a few of the old black powder (and some of the early smokeless) rounds.

Here we go!

Cartridges of the World 4th edition has a rundown of BELL's offerings.

The .45 blank that they sold could be used to make:

  • .45-100 Ballard
  • .45-75 Ballard
  • .40-60 Marlin
  • .44-70 Maynard
  • .40-50, .40-70, and .40-90 Sharps bottleneck
  • .45-100 and .45-120 Sharps Straight

Pretty good...

Oh, and it also formed into the following Winchester Center Fire cartridges:

.33, .38-56, .38-70, .40-60, .40-65, .40-70, .40-82, .45-60, .45-70, .45-82, and .45-90.
 
The BELL brass was,I recall, approx 3" and allowed everything in the 45 & 40 families to be loaded. I used to shoot a 45-100-550. You ran the brass through the form die, it stuck out the top, trimmed it with a saw and file for your proper case lenght[hardened die]. The pain was to get 100 grains of black into the cases which usually meant placing them on the floor,using a 5' drop tube, then load a 500-550 grain paper patched slug and go play "Buffalo Hunter " with my 34"bbl 18 pound Sharps.
 
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The BELL .45 blank was 3 1/4 inches, same length as the longest of the Sharps rounds.

I think the only round that couldn't be loaded with that blank was the .45-125 Winchester.
 
Yep. 45-70, 45-80,45-90, 45-100. 45-110, 45-120, etc, etc. If the powder is compressed too much, just lengthen the case a bit and keep going.
Click to expand...

You left out the 45-82 and the 45-85, as well as a few other enormously important historical rounds.

I guess that makes you some sort of idiot.

Well, somebody had to eventually say something rude, right?;)
 
you're not the only person, but I damn sure haven't heard of anything in this thread besides 45-70..

you guys are ridiculous with the knowledge...way too much stuff for a normal person to know.
 
"45-82 and the 45-85"

Both of those "rounds" were factory loading variations in the .45-90 length case.

I've always been unclear as to whether that was just marked on the box, or whether it was an actual headstamp.

Oh, and if you look closely at the list that I posted, you'll see the .45-82 listed there.

[Edward G. Robinson voice] Who's the dumbass now, eh? [/Edward G. Robinson voice] :p
 
Like a lot of you guys, my first stop was the barnes book.

I almost came back to the thread and said:

"nahh, yer just stupid. If frank barnes didn't know about it, it didn't exist."

wait a minute. I wonder if he had it listed in obsolete military cartridges, instead of obsolete commercial cartridges? :confused:

I get so confused ever since that stroke.

It left me totally paralyzed from the neck up, but I learned how to type by using speech to text software.

This can be a fun place.
 
Another small piece of the puzzle:Suppose you think of 45x2.4 brass.Today,we buy it as 45-90.Starline sells it.Winchester loaded it as an Express round.Velocity sold,back then,too.It was a BP load,but in the 1886 the twist was slow,and the standard bullet was 300 gr.(I am not an expert on this,please forgive minor errors)Sharps loaded the same brass with a heavier bullet.Some of these were paper patch,some were grease groove.Some used grease cookies,some did not.An impprtant fact in black powder cartridges,the powder charge must fill the case.No space is acceptable.So,powder charge is always determined by the case volume left after the bullet is seated.Some loads might be designated 45-2.1-405,for a 405 gr 45-70 load.

briandg,you hang in there!!I'm glad we have you here.
 
Nope. I saw one today at Jerry's gun shop in ardmore OK. Its an old Winchester lever gun with a hex barrel. He said its not for sale.
 
basic

there once was a cartidge available called the 45 basic
Click to expand...

Just a clarification. As far as I know the 45 Basic is the 45 Blank that was produced by BELL (Brass Extrusion Labs Ltd.). It is not a cartridge, per se, but the basic brass form that is made into different cartridges and then headstamped appropriately.
Just as the 30-30 and the 375 Win. are made from the same 30 Basic brass.
Pete
 
HiBC,

You make a good point.

In the black powder era, with so many different cartridges sharing a bullet and powder charge, cases were frequently designated by length as a true indication of what the proper round was.

Rifles were often marked with .45 2 1/2 for a .45 caliber rifle firing a 2.5" case. If the round were bottlenecked, you'd see BN stamped on the gun, as well.

Fillers were also frequently used in cartridges in this time frame to take up any air space, normally waxed or greased felt wads.
 
The FIRST .45 Basic brass was made by Norma before Bell was in business.
It was a little scant if you wanted one of those over the top 3 1/4" things, measuring a little over 3 1/8" but it got the resurrection of non-.45-70 black powder calibers started.

Now you can turn Hornady .405 brass into a reasonable approximation of .40-70 Sharps Straight or just don't trim it before loading with lead and black, call it a .40-72 Winchester and shoot.
 
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