Am I the only one bothered by this article?

Swagler owns Locals BBQ and was in his restaurant when this went down. Locals is 65 yards North across the parking lot. I think he made the right choice in not engaging someone with a semi-auto rifle at that range. i herd his 911 call and he did a good job giving information. his restaurant took rounds.
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I wasn't suggesting in the slightest that anybody was in the wrong for not engaging the shooter. What I was suggesting is that just because there are armed people in the area or even at the event doesn't mean that they are going to come to the rescue and save the day. We (many of the gun community and on this forum) seem to have the view that gun owners will save the day. Look at how many threads have been posted about "if just one one there had a gun...." Often they do and they don't do squat except be good witnesses and call 911. That is okay. They don't have to do a thing. However, I would put Swagler in the same boat as Danny McKown and and Joe Zamudio. They all talked about their guns when they got with the media and how or what they could or would do, but none did a thing with them. It is just chest thumping. Swagler really wanted a shot at Sencion, but by golly, you just can't imagine the firepower coming out of that rifle, huh? As he said, "I grabbed my gun" and then he did nothing with it.

If you have a gun and are a party to the events such as a mass shooting or other such similar event, please don't talk to the media about what you wished or would or could do with your gun if you wouldn't or couldn't during the event. Save the false bravado for the barbershops and bars.

Now if I was in the restaurant and something like this went down I would engage the shooter if the opportunity presented itself.
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Yes, that is called self defense. That is probably why you carry a gun...to protect yourself and your loved ones...and there is nothing wrong with that.

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WANT A LCR 22LR said:

Remember, these weapons were designed for one thing, killing the enemy. Not accepting what the original design parameters are is living in denial.
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I have looked at a LOT of gun designs over the years. I have yet to see a single one that states a design parameter of killing the enemy. Guns are designed to launch a projectile down range in a controlled manner through the used of expanding gasses produced by combustion. In fact, guns are RARELY used to kill other people. It is the bullets that do the damage, not the guns.

There is a very definite difference between design and application. What you are talking about is application, not design.
 
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Common usage - why is it interesting? Just curious.
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Because your use of the word 'failed" implies that he had an obligation to intervene and should have attempted.
 
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I wasn't implying that specifically. I agree that one does not have the obligation to engage. I might have been trying to point out the great conundrum of the armed citizen. Some rhetoric speaks to the sheepdog. Most training speaks to getting out of Dodge if you can. Done that quite a bit in previous discussion

As far as the gun being a tool - we've done that before, also. Gets boring. Convinces nobody outside of the choir.
 
Discretion is the better part of valor.

Unfortunately, while we may wish he'd done differently, I think we have to agree that Swagler acted prudently (although it would have been even more prudent to not talk about it). I'm sure he's having self-recriminations and I hope he can find peace with himself over it.

The "Sheepdog" concept is a noble, idealistic and admirable one. But there can be times when that nobility and idealism must take a back seat to practicality. Discretion is still the better part of valor.

One positive angle on his "failure to engage" is that it puts the lie to the image of CC'ers as wannabe cops and vigilantes just itchin' & twitchin' for an opportunity to blow away BGs the way Clint Eastwood or Charles Bronson would.

And face it, it's mostly on TV and in the movies that a guy with a handgun goes up against a guy with a rifle and lives to tell about it.
 
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It is most certainly no accident that the first four sentences of the news report focus most specifically on the so-called assault weapon used, the 1994 assault weapons ban, and the "fact" that Norinco is an (evil) worldwide supplier of military assault weapons. You know, weapons that we have been previously brainwashed to believe have no other purpose than to emit a massive spray of deadly bullets.

If you repeat a lie often enough, whether the lie is about evil black rifles, or that the current economy is Bush's fault, you can easily convince an intellectually lazy general public that it is the truth.

In the next few sentences we are reminded that our fearless leader is inclined to reinstate the "assault" weapons ban.

Why is there no such blistering focus on the Sencion's previous mental health issues, and on how he may have violated numerous Federal Laws in obtaining, possessing, and using a semi-automatic rifle to kill people ?

I don't wear a tinfoil hat, but you really don't need much skill to read between the lines. All that info is irrelevant to the event, yet they seek to again remind the public that if you ban something, you can make the public safer, simply by enforcing a ban.

The evil intent reside in minds and the hearts of the individuals who perpetrate these tragedies, not in the tools they use.



.
 
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This the part in the article that struck me:
The dealer who originally sold the weapon has since gone out of business, which complicates the tracing effort.
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The 4473s and bound book should be in the hands of ATF if the FFL went out of business. How does that "complicate" the tracing effort? It should make it simpler for tracing!

I'm guessing that ATF doesn't want to admit that either:
A. They can't find the 4473s
B. They didn't get the 4473s when the FFL went out of business
C. The FFL never kept the records properly in the first place, and ATF didn't correct the issue.

Any one of those options is an ATF mission failure. How fortunate they haven't had any of those lately...
 
It is most certainly no accident that the first four sentences of the news report focus most specifically on the so-called assault weapon used, the 1994 assault weapons ban, and the "fact" that Norinco is an (evil) worldwide supplier of military assault weapons. You know, weapons that we have been previously brainwashed to believe have no other purpose than to emit a massive spray of deadly bullets.
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Outlaying the parameters of a news article at the start is a common practice. That is what they did. This is done for articles on kidnappings, car wrecks, forest fires, the economy, etc. The fact that you are so bothered by the layout indicates a certain brainwashing on your part as well, no?

If you repeat a lie often enough, whether the lie is about evil black rifles, or that the current economy is Bush's fault, you can easily convince an intellectually lazy general public that it is the truth.
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Not relevant to the article. No such lie was stated in the article.

Why is there no such blistering focus on the Sencion's previous mental health issues, and on how he may have violated numerous Federal Laws in obtaining, possessing, and using a semi-automatic rifle to kill people ?
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I take it that you are not familiar with the laws concerning mental health and firearms ownership. Many people are perfectly legal owners of firearms, can purchase them, but may have mental health issues. There are specific parameters to gun ownership relative to mental health and if those are not met, by law, only then is ownership illegal.

Unlike firearms, there may be no paper trail to follow with mental health issues, especially ones where the patient has not been formally diagnosed or not admitted to a hospital for his problems. Mental health professionals don't file forms on their patients. Even if he has a doctor or doctors, it may be a while before they are finally tracked down, assuming the family provides the information (if they know it all), there are records at the guy's home, or the doctors come forward with the information.

Looks like his was detained in 2000, which may or may not have excluded him from owning or possessing firearms. Even if he did break some federal law in having them, that is in pale comparison to all the other laws he violated by shooting and wounding some folks and killing others. Heck, he may have double parked, or broken some traffic laws on the way to IHOP, but those are pretty insignificant.

So there have been articles, just not the article in the OP...
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/07/us-shooting-nevada-idUSTRE7866WQ20110907
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20102505-504083.html
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ne...e-nation-for-treating-mentally-ill-2011-09-07

I don't wear a tinfoil hat, ...
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Because you can't buy tinfoil? Here is some help with the modern day aluminum foil variety. http://www.amazon.com/Aluminum-Foil...3762/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1315504212&sr=8-1

So you are complaining that you don't like the article, not because any of the information is wrong, which you haven't indicated that it was factually wrong, but because they have reported facts that you don't like in a manner you don't like?

Dang the media for getting it right!!!
 
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The 4473s and bound book should be in the hands of ATF if the FFL went out of business. How does that "complicate" the tracing effort? It should make it simpler for tracing!
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Nope, thats probably going to make it way harder. They probably have that stuff stored and filed in a big warehouse somewhere and now they have to go and physical find it, it could take awhile.
 
Tracing the firearm to it's source is a law enforcement function. Writing an article about how a rifle was once banned but no longer, is the function of the media when it wants to promote further gun controls.
 
I'm all for tracing the AK, it is standard SOP for investigation. And besides, I want to know if it was one of the "Fast & Furious" guns!

I am confused, however, about the line "the dealer who originally sold it has gone out of business". If they know that, then they have traced the gun.

The gun could have been bought and sold a dozen times private party sales, since it was sold by the dealer, and there would be not a single shred of paper trail to trace.

As to the focus and slant of the article, its no surprise. The major media is heavily biased, and slants ALL their "news" in the direction that supports their agenda. And one of their main agendas is against private ownership of firearms.

Time Magazine even honestly stated in an editorial back in the 80s that they felt the issue of firearms ownership was too important for them to be impartial. Honestly, they did come out and say that they were taking a side. Of course, they only said it once...but they did admit it publically. Once.

They are going to try their best to make it look like mere posession of the "deadly assault rifle" turned that "kind gentle man" into a murderous killing machine. And ignore any and everything that doesn't fit that agenda.

Don't get upset, its what they do, and who they are. Just recognize that when you listen to them, you are being lied to. And worst of all, you are paying them to do it.
 
"It's odd, but when I read an article about someone killing a pedestrian with a car, the article seldom mentions what type of car it was. And when someone is killed by a drunk driver, they never go into great lengths describing what brand of scotch he/she was drinking, or where he drank it."

Total apples and oranges ... there is no controversy about automobiles, they are an accepted part of our lives. Guns, much as we might wish it otherwise, are highly controversial and any time such an incident occurs, it will be chewed on 10 ways from Sunday -- including the type of weapon, etc. With a huge national story like this one, it's hard to fault the reporter for pursuing the illegality of the weapon in question, information he no doubt got from police ...
 
Don't get upset, its what they do, and who they are. Just recognize that when you listen to them, you are being lied to. And worst of all, you are paying them to do it.
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As it also occurs with the other end of the spectrum as well with slants, fear mongering, and misrepresentations. We excuse them because they support our cause, or worse, we believe them without second thoughts.
 
"I believe the quote that refers to evil prevailing when good men do nothing is appropriate right now. "

Are you referring to the man who was 65 yards away? Do you realize how far 65 yards is in the real world? Obviously not.

Did you see the kicker tie the NFL field goal record last week? That kick was only 63 yards.
 
armoredman said:
I wish also our soldiers were allowed CCW themselves, as uniformed service members in peacetime areas not on watch are always unarmed. Let them CCW, too, they can set up gun lockers at Traffic Control on base, if need be.
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That wouldn't have helped much at Fort Hood, would it?

I agree with you that military should be allowed to carry, but I think they should be armed ALL the time. What's the rationale for a national defense force that doesn't allow its personnel to defend themselves?
 
An armed civilian failed to engage as he thought the situation was too dangerous to face the shooter's gun.
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I watched the video from Swagler's store. "Failed to engage" is appropriate. His unarmed son, Ryan, at least went out of the shop to warn folks going into the IHOP to not go in. Ralph Swagler, the man who grabbed his gun, remained safely back in his store on 911.

Check out the video from his store. The gun definitely sounds full auto.
http://www.nevadaappeal.com/article/20110915/NEWS/110919870/1070&ParentProfile=1058

I know tracing the gun story bothers folks, but the fact that they have not gone to town on the gun being anything other than an assault weapon is pretty good.
 
Jeff F said:
The 4473s and bound book should be in the hands of ATF if the FFL went out of business. How does that "complicate" the tracing effort? It should make it simpler for tracing!
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Nope, thats probably going to make it way harder. They probably have that stuff stored and filed in a big warehouse somewhere and now they have to go and physical find it, it could take awhile.
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I'm sure they have it indexed and cataloged by dealer name. The issue is that the BATFE is going to have to look through the records themselves rather than "request" that the FFL do it for them.

Hey, that's why records clerks have jobs -- to maintain (and retrieve) records.

My question was how they know who the selling dealer was in the first place. But I suppose knowing the make and serial number they know who imported it, and the importer probably has a record of what gun shop that firearm went to.
 
It's odd, but when I read an article about someone killing a pedestrian with a car, the article seldom mentions what type of car it was.
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I drive a red Camaro, so I suppose I've caught onto this more than most people. If a red Camaro is involved in a street race that goes wrong, the news always specifies it was a red Camaro. More often than not it goes something like "a red Camaro racing against another car". Apparently all the witnesses were so distracted by that red Camaro that no one else saw the other car. Was there even another car? Who knows...

Point is: they need to sell advertising space.
 
What I want to know about is if this guy has a history with the law enforcement in the area?
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No. He had a clean record and was under the law enforcement radar. Law enforcement did not know a thing about the guy until after the shooting.
http://www.kolotv.com/home/headlines/129849453.html

He had no history in Carson City, NV or in the Lake Tahoe area of CA.

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On a side note, things certainly could have been worse.
http://www.rgj.com/article/20110915...mmunition-found-home-Carson-City-IHOP-shooter

After searching the residences and finding quite a bit of gun and gun related items including 16 additional loaded AK mags and body armor.
 
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