Am I missing any options here for new ccw?

We have moved away from long trigger pulls, which I don't think is a good thing. My home protection gun is a Beretta 92 and I love it. DA and a safety. I was using a revolver until one night I woke up to a loud noise and was getting it out of the holster half asleep and realized my 1/2 asleep state was probably more dangerous than the noise. While I didn't have an ND or anything that night I knew the DA wasn't enough in that type of situation for me so I went with the beretta.



I have kids so god forbid they ever get their hands on a gun, wrestle me while I am carrying, etc. that safety is a big deal for me. Its one of the reasons I love my current mp bodyguard. Its DA, hammer fired, and has a safety. I think its great as a CCW gun. The issue I have with it is that while its great for a close encounter, its not going to do much good in any other situation.
My son right now is a toddler. He has figured out how to turn on the television, dial the phone (he called 911 which was fun), the list goes on. While I might buy that it would give you a little time, a DA pull or a manual safety is in no way a means to prevent a child from having an unintended discharge and no replacement for a gun cabinet, quick assess safe, true safe, etc. This isn't aided by the fact that pistol safeties aren't meant to be puzzle pieces. They're meant to be at least mildly intuitive.

As for the DA pull, I knew a man years ago who claimed to work for S&W when they were considering putting in the key locks in revolvers. The prevailing wisdom at the time was a child couldn't operate the DA trigger. They did a test with a number of children and an inert revolver to see if they could. The result? The kids used two hands, without prodding from anyone. Kids are smart.

At the end of the day how a person raises his child is his business. I just get very leery when I hear of people thinking a DA pull or manual safety can stop a child. I too wrestle with my son. When I do the firearm comes off and goes in a secure location. At least a holster by itself should have some level of retention that should prevent a firearm from just falling out, even if just friction.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 
They may refer to themselves as DA but the majority aren't. They aren't in weight and length of travel and they also aren't in function in that most striker fired pistols don't sit with the strikers fully at rest. Most are partially cocked with some practically fully cocked and the trigger serves to mostly rotate the sear and release the striker. Absent the Walther series and Canik series not many striker fired pistols are actually capable of "double strike" capability in that if a striker fails to ignite a cartridge the slide must by manually cycled as the trigger alone is not capable of cocking the striker. That to me is double action.

I number of years ago we had a many page thread about this and the true definition of double action etc. I stand with my description above. In that context the striker fired pistols sold today are, for the most part, not true double action.

There is no specification in the definition as to "length of travel", "pull weight", "partially cocked", "double strike", etc.
If the trigger is being used to cock the hammer/striker and release it... it is by very definition (not wiki or forum debate) "double action".

I stand by the actual definition, not opinion :D
 
There is no specification in the definition as to "length of travel", "pull weight", "partially cocked", etc. If the trigger is being used to cock the hammer/striker and release it... it is by very definition (not wiki or forum debate) "double action".



I stand by the actual definition, not opinion :D
You do you.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 
I have been listening to the Trigger wars for years on gun forums. Really do no care what someone else carries. Some like the lightest, trigger on a gun and breaks like glass. Fine, no problem with me.
I have owned all of them. Now just all DAO. Micro's for me are the Kahr and Beretta Nano/Carry Striker fired DAO. Some folks hate them, some love them. Not into high round count either and of course that bothers a lot of folks.

Shoot as many guns as you can. Take your time, Be patient in your selection. Over the years the internet has come up with all kinds of Slogans etc. "The Best Safety is the one in your head" is very popular for folks that like no safety and light triggers. For me, it means that I use my head and mind to find what is best for me and what I personally believe in. I use my experience etc. to form that choice.

Use your head and and be very careful in your selection. You cannot take back a bullet.
 
While I might buy that it would give you a little time

I agree, I think this is all it buys. Any kid can definitely figure it out in a second. Safes and education are a must in my house. We practice gun safety with a bb gun. I hope my lessons work - they worked for me! Back then my dad left his guns out but I knew never to go near them...but I still ask myself what the heck was he thinking!
 
The majority are DA.



The PPQ is a true single action trigger (100% ready to fire). The Glock is not (67% cocked).
The P320 is also, to my knowledge, true single action.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/4/23/clarifying-double-action-only-dao/

I believe the VP9 is as well but I am not familiar enough with the design to confirm or deny that.

By the true definition of DAO, yes a Glock and even an M&P does finish the cocking of the striker with the trigger pull. As someone that learned on double action revolvers and then DA/SA pistols I recognize the difference between a double action firearm that is capable of fully cocking itself by the trigger mechanism alone and one that requires movement of the slide to do so. If the argument is that all that matters is that some cocking is performed, fair enough, but using the term "DA" (which is the term my original comment responded to) does not, to me, directly indicate that person is thinking of double action only (DAO) rather than say a hammer fired DA/SA or even a Walther P99 or Canik clone. There is a mechanical difference in how these firearms function and to me the nuance matters.

If the response is, "You're just wrong, accept it and sit down", that's okay. Arguing ad nauseum over the semantics of this is something I've done before and I really don't want to do again. Moreso I don't think it matters for the OP's question when it comes to the use of a manual safety.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
The majority of pistols sold are intended to flatter the marksmanship of people that will never be in a lethal force encounter.



Even so, I am not specifically recommending a DA with a manual safety. I only mentioned that they exist as an alternative to a single-action. I agree with you that equipment cannot always compensate for people making mistakes, but single-actions may be tempting fate. DA/SA guns will also have single-action once they're initially discharged as you mentioned, but there are also DA-only guns. The most popular actions today are striker-fired guns with partially pre-cocked strikers and that is the alternative that the OP listed as considered besides the SA. Is that enough to make a difference? Again, I agree that equipment cannot always compensate for people making mistakes -- but if a manual safety is regarded as essential to the OP, the risk the safety addresses should be looked at thoroughly -- because of this fact that "safety" is not just a "checkbox." I will also assert that "training" is not the rest of the answer. As you have witnessed, even trained people surrounded by vigilant instructors still make mistakes. We can only expect it would be worse without training and vigilance. I don't mean to become fatalistic about ND's. At the end of the day, all I can say is if ND's are a concern, hence the manual safety, watch out for single-action triggers too.
I want to touch on the first point. It's not just about flattering someone's ego. Being able to make hits is important. Now I am NOT saying making hits with a 12 lb. double action is impossible. What I am saying is that, for many people, it is harder than shooting say a 5.5 lb. trigger on a Glock, M&P, etc. While I certainly see the argument that NDs are a pressing concern, if a trigger is so difficult that in shooting it a person is more likely to miss than hit then you create an additional danger. Where is that missed shot going? You can't be so focused on the danger associated with a possible ND that you hinder the shooter in actually making hits.

Now what then is the ideal trigger weight in terms of safety? Idk. It would seem that the market has settled on anything from 5 lb. to 7.5 lb. on striker fired pistols, with some lighter than that. We've already covered that some striker fired pistols are single action despite outward appearance and similarity to other pistols. If the single action in question, whether an EZ or other pistol, results in the same trigger weight and travel as say a DAO pistol, does it matter then that the pistol is single action? From a drop safety perspective maybe, but if the focus is on what the shooter experiences doesn't the mechanism become sort of an abstraction?

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 
Hi, since kids and safety have been mentioned in relation to a reason for having a gun with a heavier trigger pull, I'd like to make two points:

1st: for those of us with toddlers in the house, these bed side safes (v-line or Fort Knox) are a great option:
attachment.php


No batteries, so no way to get locked out of the safe.

2nd: And for people who want to have their gun more accessible in the house, this is one situation (gun for home protection, in a house with a kids, when the gun is NOT in a safe) where it could be a good idea NOT TO HAVE A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER. There is no way that a toddler could rack a slide, whereas on the other hand it would be very easy for a toddler to flip a safety off and to pull the trigger.

I don't believe in carrying empty chamber, but for a gun in a house with little ones, I think that it could be an option.
 

Attachments

  • serveimage.jpg
    serveimage.jpg
    20.4 KB · Views: 1,087
Last edited:
Yes. I absolutely agree there is a "balance" between preventing ND's and allowing for hits. We must not have guns so difficult to fire as to make good hits impractical. This very issue was an essential part of the crux for justifying the change from revolvers to semi-automatics for law-enforcement, and the subsequent progress toward shorter and lighter triggers. It is a practical and very meaningful need that the gun allow people to make good hits.

This is where "training" comes in. Just as "training" is part of the solution to mitigating ND's, it is also part of the solution with respect to trigger-control. Each individual is different and we have different capabilities. I don't think one type of gun or trigger is best for all people. A person needs to evaluate their physical capacity and decide whether they're better off focusing their training on trigger-control with a long heavy trigger or the challenges presented by a short light trigger, or somewhere in-between that probably means they'll face both challenges.

The reason I personally prefer long, heavy double-action triggers is because I have the physical capacity to master it, and I can do so training under "normal" conditions. Provided the physical capability, training can absolutely address the difficulty of DAO triggers.

How does a person train to overcome the challenges of a short light trigger? They can practice safe handling procedures to prevent ND's under everyday conditions, but training themselves under the stress they'll face in a lethal force incident is totally impractical for most people. We cannot practically duplicate the kind of psychological stress we'll be under in those conditions. The closest we might come is Force on Force. But how many civilians do taht at all? How many LE's do that more than rarely? We do know that we can perform trained physical tasks like firing a double-action trigger under those conditions. But how do we avoid performing unwanted reactions like startle-response, sympathetic grasp reflex, contralateral contraction, and trigger affirmation? How can we even practice that? At best we can try to practice "keeping our finger off the trigger." But research has shown this to have marginal results at best even among those intensely and exhaustively so trained.

So, train DAO triggers that we can practice and achieve success with? Or try to train a part of our psyche that we cannot even access in practice?

It is evident that most people as well as most institutional agencies have chosen something in-between. They're not willing to put the training in to truly master a DAO trigger, and there are certainly some people for whom it will never be physically practical for them.

I wonder if the in-between trigger isn't the worst of both worlds. Maybe that's why we see triggers gradually migrating toward ever shorter and lighter. At least then people only have one problem to address. Personally, I find myself quite content with the difficulty of a DAO trigger. It's a problem I know how to solve.
 
If you know how to solve your problem then you're all done. Others have to choose how to solve their problems.

I learned to shoot on a Model 13. I've carried DA/SA for years and likely have more trigger time on them than "safe-action" striker fired pistols. I too can "master" the physical limitations of the trigger. I still carry a Glock. Why? Because after multiple courses having trained under instructors I came to believe that the DA pull was not required for safety and I had personally seen that when the conditions weren't always "normal", as in I was tired or my adrenaline was pumping the shots with DA on a square range that were easy weren't so much anymore. That was my evolution. If people want to keep using DA that's certainly their choice. My example likely does not apply to someone else. At some point we choose what works for us and move on. Then there's no reason to belabor the point.

I will add that I have used a SIG P226 in DA that was converted to UTM for force on force. When I used it I had no memory of the weight of the trigger pull afterwards, and these were the older German models with very stout triggers. There are two ways to interpret this. One is, "Obviously it didn't stop you from getting hits in then." That might be, though I did miss a number of shots throughout the day regardless of the trigger and my experiences on paper suggested otherwise. My takeaway was that DA pull in no way was going to stop a true startle response on my end with the adrenaline I had going.

Lastly, there are also a lot of triggers that fall in between what I would call long, heavy double action and short, light. It's not just rough Ruger Security Six and tuned 1911 out in the world.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
Sorry TunnelRat.

Wasn't fighting, but just disagreeing. The PPQ was the first true single action drop safe dingus striker.

The P99AS was the first all together with the dingus being located on the opposite side, internally.


I would not recommend the V-Line unless you get the Brute. I have a Brute. $246 on amazon now/just ran a $50 off in September. My thought is the Brute used to be $200 so isn't that great of a deal at $250...but there aren't alternatives... The Brute is 10gauge steel. The other V-Lines are 14 and 16ga which is junk. If you have tools in your house, all steel can be drilled out or sawzalled. To open a broken Fort Knox or V-Line, call them and they will tell you where to drill to open it.

I do like the V-Line Brute over Fort Knox. The clam shell closure is worth it. Fort Knox and V-Line both use the Simplex lock. So the lock will fail the same, but the added side security is worth it. Through recall, a thicker steel is many times stronger than layered steel.

the Compact V-line at 16ga can be defeated with a claw hammer going through the metal. 18ga is file cabinet level. It astounds me that most gun "safes" are 14-16 gauge. Stack-On is almost all 16 or 18 gauge for example.

The 200 dollar 14ga V-line, also can be defeated by a claw hammer.

The 10 gauge probably won't be defeated by a claw hammer.
 
Last edited:
Yes. I absolutely agree there is a "balance" between preventing ND's and allowing for hits. We must not have guns so difficult to fire as to make good hits impractical. This very issue was an essential part of the crux for justifying the change from revolvers to semi-automatics for law-enforcement, and the subsequent progress toward shorter and lighter triggers. It is a practical and very meaningful need that the gun allow people to make good hits.

This is where "training" comes in. Just as "training" is part of the solution to mitigating ND's, it is also part of the solution with respect to trigger-control. Each individual is different and we have different capabilities. I don't think one type of gun or trigger is best for all people. A person needs to evaluate their physical capacity and decide whether they're better off focusing their training on trigger-control with a long heavy trigger or the challenges presented by a short light trigger, or somewhere in-between that probably means they'll face both challenges.

The reason I personally prefer long, heavy double-action triggers is because I have the physical capacity to master it, and I can do so training under "normal" conditions. Provided the physical capability, training can absolutely address the difficulty of DAO triggers.

How does a person train to overcome the challenges of a short light trigger? They can practice safe handling procedures to prevent ND's under everyday conditions, but training themselves under the stress they'll face in a lethal force incident is totally impractical for most people. We cannot practically duplicate the kind of psychological stress we'll be under in those conditions. The closest we might come is Force on Force. But how many civilians do taht at all? How many LE's do that more than rarely? We do know that we can perform trained physical tasks like firing a double-action trigger under those conditions. But how do we avoid performing unwanted reactions like startle-response, sympathetic grasp reflex, contralateral contraction, and trigger affirmation? How can we even practice that? At best we can try to practice "keeping our finger off the trigger." But research has shown this to have marginal results at best even among those intensely and exhaustively so trained.

So, train DAO triggers that we can practice and achieve success with? Or try to train a part of our psyche that we cannot even access in practice?

It is evident that most people as well as most institutional agencies have chosen something in-between. They're not willing to put the training in to truly master a DAO trigger, and there are certainly some people for whom it will never be physically practical for them.

I wonder if the in-between trigger isn't the worst of both worlds. Maybe that's why we see triggers gradually migrating toward ever shorter and lighter. At least then people only have one problem to address. Personally, I find myself quite content with the difficulty of a DAO trigger. It's a problem I know how to solve.
So very well said Labnoti. So glad I took the time to learn the DAO. Personally I view learning the DAO like a advanced class. Or leaning to be skillful at point and shoot skills.
But form what I have seen with the guys I shoot with including myself, Once mastered we never want to go back.
Most new shooters just cannot shoot them well and from what I have seen, most others do not want to take the effort to learn. Or some just cannot shoot them.

I guess I count myself as lucky. Learning and mastering DAO has been a blessing especially for EDC. I have no intention of ever going back unless of course I decide some day to start doing nothing but Bulls eye shooting. Had my share of that years ago.

And I started my son off with nothing but DAO triggers. Now he can do wonders with one and has no desire to learn a light striker fired gun. Just does not like shooting them at all. Smooth, controlled, deliberate, that is the name of the game for us.

PS I copied and pasted your post into a personal file I have. Again great post.
 
Last edited:
While agreeing with labnoti, I want to suggest adamBomb consider all-metal handguns from yesteryear, e.g., the S&W Gen3 9mm compact models particularly the 3900 series.

I realize you may have already bought another gun (???) since you posted this thread but there is always your next gun.

I've EDC'd a 908, 3913LS, 6906, and settled on a DAO model 3953 two years ago as my favorite CCW. I like this DAO model because I can get a solid grip on the gun from an IWB holster. The added 3 ounces over the Shield helps with recoil management. The gun concealed well under a t-shirt even in our humid NC summer weather.

I carry my 3953 in an open-top clip-on holster positioned just in front of my hip bone. This type of holster allows me to easily move it from one side to the other when needed.
 
Back
Top