Am I doomed to the Pit of Despair?

J

Jedi Oomodo

New member
At a recent trip to the range, I was fortunate to have assistance from a range officer, who gave Darth and I tips on improving our marksmanship. I have encountered some difficulty in using his advice.

One thing he suggested to me is to keep the slide in line with the long bone of my forearm. Here's where my problem lies: if I do this, my fingers are to short to reach the trigger. I must have the gun canted slightly off center from my forearm in order to put the tip of my left index finger on the trigger. The RO suggested that I might have to switch to a smaller gun. However, I do not wish to languish the rest of my shooting life, relegated to nothing but PPKs (not that I don't like them, just not as a primary sidearm [and no haranguing about it being adequate with shot placement, etc, etc- I've heard it all before, and know the drill. I want a .45]), and .25ACPs, and other assorted mouseguns. A guy that I work with has fingers about the same length as mine, and he said he was told he would need said .25s, or a lady's gun. I already have a SIG P245 that I do not want to trade for anything, much less to downgrade to a .380, or (ugh) .32.

So, I finally come to my question (any TFLers who have managed to make it this far without bailing may now sigh with relief ;) )- Any suggestions or advice on techniques I can use to improve my aim using normal sized handguns? I refuse to endure mouseguns the rest of my life, and I am determined to prove (to myself, if no one else) that I can be a good shot, without resorting to itsy-bitsy pistols. I look forward to reading all 3 of the replies I'm likely to get. :p

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Pray as though it's all up to God, act as though it's all up to you.

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If it isna Scottish, it's CRAP! RKBA!
 
I wouldn`t worry too much about it. While the RO`s advice is basically sound you`ll find that few folks can grip typical DA autos with it *perfectly* indexed in their hand and still reach the trigger. I have large hands and long fingers and I still have to grip my CZ-75 off center a little to engage the trigger properly in DA mode,unless it`s at half cock. Sigs are known for having a long DA trigger reach (just like the CZ) so you may wanna try a "short reach" trigger from Sig or TJ`s custom shop. Other than that all you can do it get your indexing as close as possible while retaining good trigger control and practice practice practice. Marcus
 
If you get a .45 and are still having troubles reaching the trigger, then get thin grips. Wilson Combat and Chip McCormick both have them, although they are not cheap (~$50 or so). I have them for my CCW in order make the gun thinner, hence more discrte. My wife has them as well. Without them, she would not ride the safety with her thumb and squeeze the trigger at the same time. Now she can. This gave her a better grip and shooting platform, and helped to increase her accuracy.

I am sure there are thinner grips for other types of pistols, but I am not familiar with any.
 
If you insist on keeping the SIG then you will have to adjust to having an improper grip on the weapon.
It sounds to me like your problem is more a matter of trigger reach than gun size. My recommendation would be the venerable 1911 with the original short trigger. One of the beauties of the 1911 is that with changes in grip thickness, mainspring housing, and trigger (there are at least three lengths) you can adapt it to a wide variety of hand sizes.
You would have to master the cock-n-locked mode of carry but millions of people have done that. And, it ain't no mouse gun!

Dave T
 
Jedi, I'd echo what Dave T. said. You have a problem which can be solved, but it's going to take a liberal application of $$$.

I've often wondered how well the 1911 would fit those with smaller hands if the thickness of the metal in the grip frame were to be reduced by 1/128th inch on each of the 4 sides (or take 1/128 off each side, and 1/64 off the frontstrap.) This would result in the frame being about 1/32nd inch reduced. Relieve the frame on either side of the trigger and at the trigger guard/grip frame junction, add slim stocks, short trigger, & flat MSH, and it should be manageable by anyone who has hands bigger than an 8 year old....I think.

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Shoot straight & make big holes, regards, Richard at The Shottist's Center
 
Jedi,

SIG also makes "short triggers" that might help you with trigger reach. Check out their website, or visit the SIG Forums.

Like you I have a 245 and smallish hands; the short trigger made a big difference in handling quality.

Neal
 
Jedi
I think the range officer did you a disservice. Many excellent and a few world class shooters shoot with the bbl/slide nowhere near in line with the forearm.

Attention to consistancy of grip and sight picture far more important. Where practicable, being able to get a fair amount of finger in the trigger is nice. Lots of dry firing with attention to sight picture on each shot will probably do wonders. Live fire, pay attention to sight picture for each shot. Live fire with dummy rounds in magazine loaded by somebody else will tell you if you hold the sight picture THROUGH the shot.

Sam.....little ol feller packin a .44, not Yosimity, no hair.
 
Jedi, sounds like the good advice was bad for you. Like C.R. Sam said, use what works for you and trow the rest away. Practice shooting your way and let others worry about "proper sight alignment". Above all, practice.

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Abandon your animosities and make your sons Americans. Robert E. Lee

Beware the three D's: The dumb, drunk, and deranged.

chadintex@hotmail.com
 
Agree completely with the well-armed little old feller above. Note:

1. The pistol remains pointed at the target throughout the trigger pull. (Maintain sight picture THROUGH the shot).

2. To achieve this, the pressure should be applied to the trigger gradually until it breaks, and the direction of the pressure should be straight back from the target. Consider using different parts of the pad of your finger to find what works best.

3. Step two is much easier to acheive with a pistol that fits your hand, combined with the proper grip. The grip should be comfortable for you, so that you can automatically assume it when the pistol is in your hand.

4. For more rewarding dry fire practice, mount a cheap laser to your pistol. Try to keep the dot steady throughout the trigger squeeze.

Good luck and regards to all,

Ledbetter
 
I never thought I had a smaller hand until I got a Para P12 with the fatter grip due to the staggered mag.

I found I had a definite tendency to pull shots down and to the left of the point of aim. I cured this problem with three steps:
1) A trigger job for a slick 4# trigger.
2) Modifying my hold by increasing pressure with my left hand, and decreasing pressure with my right hand produced better trigger control with my trigger finger.
3) Concentrating on consistent placement of the pad of my trigger finger on the trigger for straight-back trigger pressure.

Just find what works for you with that gun and practice for consistency.
 
I've got to agree with the rangemaster. Each of us has different sized/configured hands. There are guns that are simply not as good in some people's hands. Can this be overcome? Yes, but people shoot better, sooner with a more suitable sized/configured gun.

I know how you feel. I bought a G19 and I love the gun! However, the grip angle is all wrong for me. In the safe it sits <sigh>.

There are quite a few good pistols that are better suited for smaller hands. The Sig P225 , Kahr K9, and 1911 all come to mind.
 
I have wide hands and short fingers.Even a 1911 with short trigger will not line up for me.Do what works for you.That RO thinks by the book and the book is a guideline and that is all.Stay consistent and watch your sights and your shooting will improve.Do not worry about the line up.

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Bob--- Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.
 
I have to agree with range officer also but this doesn't mean that you are doomed to a mouse gun. I have small hands and have found that the Sig 225, Sig 239 and Smith 3913 have triggers that are easy to reach with short fingers. These guns will probably line up the slide with your arm no problem and make shooting and controlling recoil a lot easier.
 
I hate to say it BUT the range guy is basically right.

(

I have the same problem. I am 5 foot 4 inches tall and my hands are pretty small. I have a hard time with the trigger/grip of almost ALL pistols. The 1911 feels good but I HATE the grip safety thingie and really don't care for cocked & locked.

So, I'm pretty much a revolver guy. I carry a 640 .357 with hogue bantam (or boot grips) grips.

bantam.jpg


The J-Frame with boot type grips fits the small hand better than ANYTHING else IMHO.

The 686 with hogues aint too bad either.

The 3913 S&W 9 mm is "OK". That's what I learned to shoot with.

BTW, I have no problems with recoil just trigger reach/alignment.

[This message has been edited by WebHobbit (edited September 17, 2000).]
 
I've got short fingers, too - don't feel like the Lone Ranger! When I fire my brother-in-law's Ruger 45, it's all I can do to maintain a consistant grip.

Currently, I own a Walther P99 (in 40S&W),& a Kahr K40. They are NOT mouse guns at all!

Walther provides 3 different sizes of back-straps for the grip, & I use the smallest one. The Kahr just fits my hand, plain & simple. Both guns are reliable & accurate. So, as has been said before, find something that feels right to you, & practice as often as you can. Good Luck.

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"Skeptical scrutiny can separate deep insight from deep nonsense."
 
I agree with everyone else that you have to find a way to hit the target consistently. That is really all that matters. How you accomplish that is experimenting till you find what works for you. I also agree about a short trigger. You can also get slim grips that might help a little too. I think you'll get it figured out and will be able to find what works for you. Good luck.

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***Torpedo***
It's a good life if you can survive it!
 
All you folks with short hands...if you have not held a Browning Hi-Power (or clone) before, you may want to try. It has a short trigger reach that feels good in small hands.
 
Jedi Oomodo,

The RO was correct in suggesting what he thinks of smaller guns, but I'm surprised he's forgotten to say that smaller gun doesn't necessarily mean smaller caliber. Examples? Well, here're a few:

Sig 225 (9 mm)
Sig 239 (9 mm, .357SIG, or .40)
Glock 26 (9 mm)
Glock 27 (.40)
Kahr MK9 and MK40 (9 mm and .40 correspondingly)

I have and sometimes carry MK40 among the other, and it's the smallest .40 on the planet, AFAIK. In fact, it's so small, I have to bend my trigger finger more than usual to put its first pad on the trigger. And it has the smoothest DAO pull I know of, BTW.

My second choice of the most powerfull and, at the same time, the most compact gun would be Glock 27.

Both guns are wrist breakers though...
 
I have very large hands. Actually, I can't shoot any single-stack 1911
type gun, I need a Para-ord P14-45, a Glock 20 or a USP,
preferably caliber 45. I also happen to have a USP Expert. Else, it's
a Glock 17 with Hogue slip-on rubber grips. Or, of course, most rifles
or SMG. :)

Actually, the range guy is right. Get the right gun for your hand, or
get the right hand for your gun. Your choice. ;)
 
Yes, you are doomed to the pit of despair, at least regarding the whole range of gun choices.

I also have small hands (I'm lefty to boot -- rules out even more gun choices) and went through a lot of guns before I discovered 1911s. Because of my small hands, I've had to rule out handgun after handgun. Even the Walther P99 with the adjustable backstrap had too long a DA trigger pull. I looked at the Sig P245--it didn't fit my hand and it also had a long DA pull.

Then I found 1911s and the obvious ways to modify them--slim grips and a short trigger. That should cost you less than $100 in modifications. Stay with single stack 1911s like Kimber, Springfield, and Colt. If you want a smaller gun like the Sig, then go with the Kimber or Springfield compact model (you can also modify them). Beware... 1911s are highly addictive.
 
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