Am I carrying my LC9 "cocked and locked",,,

A

aarondhgraham

New member
The RUGER® LC9® and LC380TM are compact, single-strike, double-action
only, magazine-fed, recoil-operated pistols.
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This is from the Ruger LC9 manual.

I was chatting with a friend at my watering hole the other day,,,
He considers himself to be a Blessed Disciple of John Moses Browning.

He carries a 1911 Cocked and Locked.

So we were yakkin' away over a shot of Tequila,,,
I said what I always say to him on that particular subject,,,
I could never be comfortable carrying a semi-automatic cocked and locked.

His reply was: "Why do you keep saying that? Your LC9 is cocked and locked when you carry it."

We debated but I answered by saying: "I don't think my LC9 is ever cocked. Yes it is a single-strike,,,
So you have to pull the slide about a half an inch to actuate the trigger mechanism,,,
But that doesn't "cock" the pistol like he believes it does.

It cocks when I pull the trigger as in any DAO handgun.

Who is correct in this minor debate?

There's a $17.50 shot of Patron Platinum riding on this.

Aarond

.
 
Theohazard said:
You're correct.
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I personally agree, but not everyone else will.

This question is the basis for an ongoing semantic debate on this forum and elsewhere. Virtually all pistols with a rotating sear- which encompasses a LOT of different designs- display some degree of rearward hammer or striker movement before they fire, even if the amount of movement is very small. This includes some nominally SAO designs along with DA/SA guns that can be carried cocked and locked (e.g. CZ 75B, Beretta 84 pre-F).

This debate seems to frequently arise when someone asks whether the S&W M&P is legitimately DAO, as its striker is at least 95% (if not 98%!) cocked with the trigger at rest.

I consider the LC9 to be DAO because it requires a long and relatively heavy pull before the pistol will fire. However, I've reached the conclusion that there's no absolutely clear and unequivocal line between a DAO pistol with a partially pre-set trigger, such as the LC9, and an "almost SAO" design such as the M&P. It's a matter of perception. YMMV.
 
Who is correct in this minor debate?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what Ruger even means by their "single strike" adjective.

This question is the basis for an ongoing semantic debate on this forum and elsewhere.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure it's an ongoing debate, so much as people just using terms any old way they feel like it, thinking it's the only way.
 
Hello lee n. field,,,

I'm not sure what Ruger even means by their "single strike" adjective.
Click to expand...

A single-strike action is one where you can not pull the trigger a second time on a dud round.

With my DA/SA pistols,,,
If the cartridge doesn't fire,,,
I can pull the trigger a second time.

Essentially I can pull the trigger and actuate the hammer multiple times,,,
Without having to rack the slide.

The LC9 does not allow that,,,
Pull the trigger one time for one hammer hit.

If the cartridge doesn't fire the cartridge,,,
The trigger will not actuate the hammer a second time,,,
The slide must move backwards to re-actuate the trigger mechanism.

Aarond

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If the second pull of the trigger on a dud round doesn't allow the gun to fire a second time. IE re cocking the hammer/striker and allowing it to re strike the primer it is NOT a DA gun.

I suppose if you use the safety on the LC9 then it would in fact be cocked and locked.
 
As much as the "DAO" terminology is questionable, the use of the term "cocked and locked" sounds like it was also getting misused. Locked only means that a manual safety is in place.


I do think that a pretty decent argument can be made that any gun that can reliably fire a cartridge with a trigger pull of less than 8 pounds is a type of single action - just from the standpoint that the mainspring is receiving so little actual cocking force from the trigger.

But the old terms haven't really applied since the late 1970s when three companies - Glock, HK and FN - started divorcing trigger function from mainspring condition.
 
Your compadre appears to have missed the "locked" aspect of cocked 'n' locked?
Regardless of the trigger action, if there's no manual safety, the gun can't be locked.
 
Hello RickB

...if there's no manual safety, the gun can't be locked.
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But there is a manual safety,,,
So I can carry it locked.

My argument is that because it's a DAO pistol,,,
It's never cocked in a holster.

Aarond

P.S. I really want that high-dollar shot of Tequila. ;)

,
 
Sorry, I thought we were talking LCP.
I'd have to agree that any gun without double-strike ability is not double action.
The distinctions have definitely been blurred by the rise of the striker-fired pistol, but whether you think the "double" in DA means the gun can be fired in two ways, or it means the trigger both cocks and drops the hammer, a gun that requires racking the slide to reset the lockwork is not double action, and is much closer to the traditional definition of single action.
 
aarondhgraham said:
A single-strike action is one where you can not pull the trigger a second time on a dud round.

With my DA/SA pistols,,,
If the cartridge doesn't fire,,,
I can pull the trigger a second time.

Essentially I can pull the trigger and actuate the hammer multiple times,,,
Without having to rack the slide.

The LC9 does not allow that,,,
Pull the trigger one time for one hammer hit.

If the cartridge doesn't fire the cartridge,,,
The trigger will not actuate the hammer a second time,,,
The slide must move backwards to re-actuate the trigger mechanism.
Click to expand...

So your LC9 works like Para's LDA pistols -- no second strike but the hammer is preset but not visibly cocked. Para considers that arrangement to be double action but, IMHO, if you can't pull the trigger again for a dud, it ain't double action.

That said ... regardless of whether or not your LC9 is cocked as you carry it, it isn't cocked and locked because it doesn't have an external, manual safety. That's what the "locked" refers to with the 1911-- the thumb safety being set.
 
That said ... regardless of whether or not your LC9 is cocked as you carry it, it isn't cocked and locked because it doesn't have an external, manual safety. That's what the "locked" refers to with the 1911-- the thumb safety being set.
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The LC9 does have a manual safety. Its the LCP that does not.
 
The S&W DAO guns (3953, 5953, etc) had to be preset before firing, and they are still considered DAO by most police departments.
 
And some people also consider Glocks DAO.

Like the Kahr, those old S&W behaved like DAO, in that there was full reset necessary between shots. Functionally, it satisfies the reason a PD would want DAO.
 
Well, I finally convinced him,,,

Well, I finally convinced him,,,
I'm not quite certain of how though.

My argument was that it isn't cocked,,,
That pulling the trigger cocks the hammer.

I convinced him that actuating the trigger mechanism,,,
And cocking the hammer were two different things.

So yesterday evening I enjoyed a free 2-ounce shot,,,
Of some seriously good tequila.

Thanks for you help gentlemen,,, :D

Aarond

.
 
You were both a little right and a little wrong.

You were the more correct one in my opinion, and deserved the free shot.


The LC9 requires the trigger and hammer to be partially set by the slide. Most likely this was done to lessen the pull in both weight and length. Bit where the hammer sits at rest is not enough to fire the pistol like a normal cocked and locked pistol would be.
 
His reply was: "Why do you keep saying that? Your LC9 is cocked and locked when you carry it."
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Your friend doesn't know what he is talking about. This terminology only applies to single action only guns like a 1911 or traditional Hi-Power.

The LC9 is double action only. When you chamber a round it is actually partially cocked but you can't see this - the hammer doesn't protrude. (This is why the LC9 doesn't have double strike capability and also doesn't have a 15lb trigger like an AMT Backup.) Pulling the trigger cocks the hammer the rest of the way and then releases it.

The LC9 safety doesn't lock a cocked action like on a 1911. It just locks the trigger, which is redundant on a DAO, but necessary on a true SA cocked action.
 
My LC9 hammer is less than 10% cocked - I don't consider it "cocked and locked"

My SR40 Striker is about 75% cocked - I don't consider it "cocked and locked"

My Sig P398 hammer is 100% cocked - I definitely consider that sucker "cocked and locked" :D :D :D

Any Questions ?????
 
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