zincwarrior
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You could indeed.
always amazed at the stupidity.
- Thread starter SaxonPig
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Yes I think you could, people might not like it, but yes you could.
Constitutional rights only put rules on what government entities can or cannot do.
Very little bearing on property owners.
You should respect property owner's and manager wishes or go elsewhere. Pretty simple. I'm not sure why people have a hard time getting this concept.
If we want to slip into a less free system, and force private entities to go against their will, well, that's just not free market at all
Constitutional rights only put rules on what government entities can or cannot do.
Very little bearing on property owners.
You should respect property owner's and manager wishes or go elsewhere. Pretty simple. I'm not sure why people have a hard time getting this concept.
If we want to slip into a less free system, and force private entities to go against their will, well, that's just not free market at all
More seriously, your post points out why a business owner can post a "no shirt, no shoes, no service" sign.Glenn E. Meyer
New member
There is a debate in TX whether a restaurant can ban folks in biker clothes. It was on the news just BEFORE the Waco shootout. The issue seems to have been dropped.
It's a complicated issue. One can argue you can go elsewhere. That principle fell in the protected class debate as blanket bans on race were used as instruments of segregation. The denial of service was insidious.
Now is carrying for SD an intrinsic right (as race, ethnicity) that overwhelms the prejudice of the property owners? That has not been decided.
If it is then, carry bans (except for highly techy reasons) are wrong. We do not support the property owner denying rights. If it is not, then the bans are morally legit.
Personally, I come down for the bans not being moral or legit. If you open to the public - you respect the intrinsic rights of the public.
You might say the shopper doesn't have to go to that store. But you can say that you don't have to have that business - do something else - if you don't respect basic rights.
It's a complicated issue. One can argue you can go elsewhere. That principle fell in the protected class debate as blanket bans on race were used as instruments of segregation. The denial of service was insidious.
Now is carrying for SD an intrinsic right (as race, ethnicity) that overwhelms the prejudice of the property owners? That has not been decided.
If it is then, carry bans (except for highly techy reasons) are wrong. We do not support the property owner denying rights. If it is not, then the bans are morally legit.
Personally, I come down for the bans not being moral or legit. If you open to the public - you respect the intrinsic rights of the public.
You might say the shopper doesn't have to go to that store. But you can say that you don't have to have that business - do something else - if you don't respect basic rights.
Unlicensed Dremel
Moderator
I've actually done this more than once.
Couple months ago, to manager at formerly-favorite restaurant with new idiot signs:
"Hi. I've been coming in here for many years. Now I see your sign, that you don't allow guns. Is this a corporate decision or just your store?"
"It's corporate"
"OK, well, I just want to verify that you don't want my business - is that correct? I carry a concealed gun, so therefore I'm not allowed - is it true that you don't want my business any more, even though I've been coming in here for years?"
"Yes, that's correct. But, if it's concealed, who's gonna know?"
Me: "Huh? Say what? It's YOUR sign, that says 'no guns'. It doesn't say 'no OPEN guns; concealed ok' - I'm trying to obey YOUR rules, and verifying what they are. Are you telling me to ignore your rules?"
"Well, no I guess not. But people carrying open scares the customers."
"Well, I'd like for the sign to be taken down."
"Well it's not gonna come down."
"Well, in my opinion and belief, it will either come down or you'll go out of business in this very pro-gun state. It already looks much slower in here than it used to."
"Yeah, well you may be right, down here in this state." (I sort of inferred that he was from elsewhere, of a more northerly latitude).
"Ok, I'll check back every few months to see if the sign is down. "
"OK"
There is NO WAY I'm giving one dime of my money to a business with a stupid sign, even if the mgt tells me with a wink and a nod that they don't REALLY mean it, for a 'good' customer like me carrying concealed. Screw them.
Having said that, and maybe this is a cave of principle (not sure), but there ARE some places here now that open carry is legal, which used to have no signs, but recently put up signs that say "Concealed only" with a picture of a handgun. I'm ok with these, and still give these places my business.
Couple months ago, to manager at formerly-favorite restaurant with new idiot signs:
"Hi. I've been coming in here for many years. Now I see your sign, that you don't allow guns. Is this a corporate decision or just your store?"
"It's corporate"
"OK, well, I just want to verify that you don't want my business - is that correct? I carry a concealed gun, so therefore I'm not allowed - is it true that you don't want my business any more, even though I've been coming in here for years?"
"Yes, that's correct. But, if it's concealed, who's gonna know?"
Me: "Huh? Say what? It's YOUR sign, that says 'no guns'. It doesn't say 'no OPEN guns; concealed ok' - I'm trying to obey YOUR rules, and verifying what they are. Are you telling me to ignore your rules?"
"Well, no I guess not. But people carrying open scares the customers."
"Well, I'd like for the sign to be taken down."
"Well it's not gonna come down."
"Well, in my opinion and belief, it will either come down or you'll go out of business in this very pro-gun state. It already looks much slower in here than it used to."
"Yeah, well you may be right, down here in this state." (I sort of inferred that he was from elsewhere, of a more northerly latitude).
"Ok, I'll check back every few months to see if the sign is down. "
"OK"
There is NO WAY I'm giving one dime of my money to a business with a stupid sign, even if the mgt tells me with a wink and a nod that they don't REALLY mean it, for a 'good' customer like me carrying concealed. Screw them.
Having said that, and maybe this is a cave of principle (not sure), but there ARE some places here now that open carry is legal, which used to have no signs, but recently put up signs that say "Concealed only" with a picture of a handgun. I'm ok with these, and still give these places my business.
Our rights are our rights, but none of them is limitless. Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose.
Our rights vs. GOVT is a matter of interpretation of law. Our rights vs. each other is a matter of negotiation, (hopefully) under the framework of law.
Ban "biker" clothes from your business? It's your right. I don't see any possible argument. If a club / restaurant can require me to wear a suit coat & tie to be served (or even seated), clearly a dress code is allowed. You can argue about WHAT is proper for the dress code, but not that one is allowed, and you are required to meet it, or you don't get in.
No Shirt
No Shoes
No Service
Ever NOT see a sign like this at a business? (primarily a food business?)
Ok, not on the beach, maybe, but even then, there is often a sign, just not strictly enforced.
And the "No Gun" signs aren't really stupid, if you understand the real purpose.
They aren't put up with the expectation that the sign alone will prevent violence, they are put up to prevent lawyers from suing the business IF violence occurs.
Absent such a sign, lawyers will try to claim that the mall (or whatever) allowed guns/gun wielders on the property, and therefore, either encouraged or contributed to the violence, and therefore are responsible, and therefore, must PAY.
And juries have a strong tendency to look at any business as having "deep pockets", sadly no matter what the actual facts are, juries often look only at who they believe can pay.
So, while the sign does restrict your unlimited right to carry, so do many other things. Including MY rights, on my property, and your rights, on yours.
Our rights vs. GOVT is a matter of interpretation of law. Our rights vs. each other is a matter of negotiation, (hopefully) under the framework of law.
Ban "biker" clothes from your business? It's your right. I don't see any possible argument. If a club / restaurant can require me to wear a suit coat & tie to be served (or even seated), clearly a dress code is allowed. You can argue about WHAT is proper for the dress code, but not that one is allowed, and you are required to meet it, or you don't get in.
No Shirt
No Shoes
No Service
Ever NOT see a sign like this at a business? (primarily a food business?)
Ok, not on the beach, maybe, but even then, there is often a sign, just not strictly enforced.
And the "No Gun" signs aren't really stupid, if you understand the real purpose.
They aren't put up with the expectation that the sign alone will prevent violence, they are put up to prevent lawyers from suing the business IF violence occurs.
Absent such a sign, lawyers will try to claim that the mall (or whatever) allowed guns/gun wielders on the property, and therefore, either encouraged or contributed to the violence, and therefore are responsible, and therefore, must PAY.
And juries have a strong tendency to look at any business as having "deep pockets", sadly no matter what the actual facts are, juries often look only at who they believe can pay.
So, while the sign does restrict your unlimited right to carry, so do many other things. Including MY rights, on my property, and your rights, on yours.
Ok, but can a deed-restricted neighborhood incorporate an anti-gun provision in the covenants and restrictions? What about a condominium? Non-government property, but does a developer or majority group of homeowners/condo owners have a right to declare whole neighborhoods "gun-free" zones? And, is this all that different than a large mall declaring a large public area a "gun-free" zone? In other words what is and is not a "government"?
That one is usually imposed by health department law.
Malls are different than other places in that the mall has an owner, and controls common areas, but the businesses inside the mall are independantly owned, and they lease from the mall owner. Sometimes some of those businesses have their own entrance where you do not need to go through a common area to get inside of them.We have a mall here that closed down, except for a Pennys and a Sears that lasted several more years as they owned their buildings. You could go in those stores, and look through the windows (between spaces in the paper over them) and see the abandoned mall they were attached to.
My point is that i'm not sure exactly what the deal is, about how much control store operators in a mall have over their own leased space within it. Obviously the corporation that owns the mall gets to make the rules in the common areas, but I'm not sure how much power a store has within their area if they had opposing views, while letting the mall know why you won't enter is a good idea, I think that letting the stores you would like to visit also know might have a bigger imapct.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Telling a low wage employee at a store run by a major corporation will have little impact. They couldn't care less if you shop there.
Unless you can influence the corporate decision makers with a real economic threat or wide spread negative PR - it's just internet BS.
I'm afraid many of you miss the point about this 'little issue'. It is the fundamental definition of self-defense as a right equal to the definitions that made protected classes not subject to discrimination.
Yapping about shirts or health codes is trivial.
Unless you can influence the corporate decision makers with a real economic threat or wide spread negative PR - it's just internet BS.
I'm afraid many of you miss the point about this 'little issue'. It is the fundamental definition of self-defense as a right equal to the definitions that made protected classes not subject to discrimination.
Yapping about shirts or health codes is trivial.
roashooter
Moderator
if its concealed...it falls under the .."NUNYA" rule....and in Oklahoma if the cops are called....WITHOUT ASKING YOU FIRST ..to leave...the cops can only write a ticket for trespassing....and in most cases...just walk you out and wish you a good day...
Most places you will be asked to leave. The mall around here is no firearms but there is no signs at the doors or at least the doors I go into so I carry regardless. I'd rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6. The only places I don't carry is where state and federal law forbid me to its that simple. Other than that no one knows I have it on me.
All stores in a mall have to abide by the mall owner rules. My wife works at a jewelry store owned by Christians and they didn't want to open up early I forget what holiday it was. And the mall told them you have to be open when most stores open on that holiday and they said no so the mall fined them for not opening up early. wasn't just there it was every mall that had that store in there mall was fined. But more power to them standing up to the man even though it doesn't mean anything to the rich scum of the world.
Just keep it concealed.
The owner, manager can put up whatever sign the feel fit.
Some places the sign really means no UN-licensed carry.
Does taking away the gun really eliminate all possibility of self preservation? No.
You can carry tasers, mace, fists or run away.
I don't think you'll ever successfully lodge a valid complaint that your civil rights are being violated by a mall sign.
The owner, manager can put up whatever sign the feel fit.
Some places the sign really means no UN-licensed carry.
Does taking away the gun really eliminate all possibility of self preservation? No.
You can carry tasers, mace, fists or run away.
I don't think you'll ever successfully lodge a valid complaint that your civil rights are being violated by a mall sign.
A businesses here actually has a sign saying that you are welcome to carry a gun. It's a small shop. Meanwhile a couple of others have signs saying no guns allowed. Ironically the store I work in is a franchise based store, corporate once sent signs to hang up saying no one can carry. The owners refused to hang them up, the owners and about half of the staff carrys a gun.
Double Naught Spy
New member
No, they are not. This is a stupid myth started by the pro gun folks about anti-gunners. Business owners know full well that signs do not stop crime. If they believed they did, they would put up "No Robbery Signs."
If you don't want guns in your business in several states, this is specifically what is needed. There is no issue of stupidity here. Otherwise, the signs are for idiot gun carriers who want to argue with mgmt about there not being a sign when they are asked to leave. Apparently, some people don't believe something is a rule, policy, or relevant unless it is posted.
Again, not an issue of stupidity. Being a lawfully armed citizen does not make you a competent cop. Being lawful in this case and being competent are not inherently related.
Blacktimberwolf
Moderator
It's very easy : "my house, my rules".
You have to respect it or you stay out, stupid or not, that's not the question.
You have to respect it or you stay out, stupid or not, that's not the question.
Magnum Wheel Man
New member
my understanding in MN ( yep a mall in a nearby town has "the signs" ), is that they can't legally post the signs as it can effect the business's that lease from them...
there was actually a Tandy leather store in this mall that sold holster kits & such... as I was making holsters for a while ( when I had more spare time ) I asked them abouit the signs ,as it was effecting their business... there was also a sporting goods store that also sold guns, in the mall when I asked about it, I was told that the signs the mall owners posted were not legal???
there was actually a Tandy leather store in this mall that sold holster kits & such... as I was making holsters for a while ( when I had more spare time ) I asked them abouit the signs ,as it was effecting their business... there was also a sporting goods store that also sold guns, in the mall when I asked about it, I was told that the signs the mall owners posted were not legal???
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