Almost got a deal on a full auto.. question
- Thread starter exilefromhell
- Start date
http://www.subguns.com/laws/iif1.htm
In addition, if one is also a SOT, ATF claims to have the
right to enter onto your business premises, during business
hours, to verify compliance with the NFA. Their regulation to
that effect is found at 27 CFR sec. 179.22. The regulation is
apparently based upon 26 USC sec. 7606:
7606. Entry of premises for examination of taxable
objects.
(a) Entry during day.
The Secretary may enter, in the daytime, any building
or place where any articles or objects subject to tax are
made, produced, or kept, so far as it may be necessary for
the purpose of examining said articles or objects.
(b) Entry at night.
When such premises are open at night, the Secretary may
enter them while so open, in the performance of his official
duties.
(c) Penalties
For penalty for refusal to permit entry or examination, see
section 7342.
As 26 USC sec. 7342 provides for the penalty for a refusal to
permit entry under section 7606 it is worth a look:
7342. Penalty for refusal to permit entry or examination.
Any owner of any building or place, or person having the
agency or superintendence of the same, who refuses to admit
any officer or employee of the Treasury Department acting
under the authority of section 7606 (relating to entry of
premises for examination of taxable articles) or refuses to
permit him to examine such article or articles, shall, for
every such refusal, forfeit $500.
------------------------------------------
it looks like the NFA corporation dispute was because of a misunderstanding. Robert was referring to a corporation that is a class III dealer, who would be subject to such searches as a dealer. However, it looks like chet was referring to a corporation that merely was an NFA weapon owner, and not a dealer. In that case, the corporation still has the same 4th ammendment rights as any individual.
In addition, if one is also a SOT, ATF claims to have the
right to enter onto your business premises, during business
hours, to verify compliance with the NFA. Their regulation to
that effect is found at 27 CFR sec. 179.22. The regulation is
apparently based upon 26 USC sec. 7606:
7606. Entry of premises for examination of taxable
objects.
(a) Entry during day.
The Secretary may enter, in the daytime, any building
or place where any articles or objects subject to tax are
made, produced, or kept, so far as it may be necessary for
the purpose of examining said articles or objects.
(b) Entry at night.
When such premises are open at night, the Secretary may
enter them while so open, in the performance of his official
duties.
(c) Penalties
For penalty for refusal to permit entry or examination, see
section 7342.
As 26 USC sec. 7342 provides for the penalty for a refusal to
permit entry under section 7606 it is worth a look:
7342. Penalty for refusal to permit entry or examination.
Any owner of any building or place, or person having the
agency or superintendence of the same, who refuses to admit
any officer or employee of the Treasury Department acting
under the authority of section 7606 (relating to entry of
premises for examination of taxable articles) or refuses to
permit him to examine such article or articles, shall, for
every such refusal, forfeit $500.
------------------------------------------
it looks like the NFA corporation dispute was because of a misunderstanding. Robert was referring to a corporation that is a class III dealer, who would be subject to such searches as a dealer. However, it looks like chet was referring to a corporation that merely was an NFA weapon owner, and not a dealer. In that case, the corporation still has the same 4th ammendment rights as any individual.
Robert the41MagFan
New member
chetchat,
We talked a few weeks ago about this and he is standing on the same ground. It cool, but very gray. You don't want to push the man (ATF) or tangle with LE, if you know what I mean. In fact, one of our customers, who happens to be a very large collector of machine-guns, went off the handle. He was stating that the paperwork that one gets back clearly states that the NFA weapon must reside at the address stated in the paperwork and in the possession and control of its owner. No exceptions. Definitely an even stronger position then what I have. And also noticed on assaultweb.com (the post you put up) was also mixed. So, I think we opened a major can of worms.
I took it upon myself to contact ATF and get a definitive answer on this issue. Only problem is that they don't take email with technical questions and it had to be done via snail mail. It going to be like that commercial, "not going anywhere for a while!". In other words, it gonna take time. We may have an answer back by Xmas if we are lucky.
I'll post either way when we get an answer.
Talked to an attorney on the Fourth issue and he kind of on your position and that there is protection. But, if they suspect foul play, lets say narcotics or some other illegal activity, they will pretty much do things by the book and do what they want to do. Kind of spooky the was he explained how the judicial and LE work hand in hand. More like, what Fourth! But the bottom line was, there is nothing to fear. They are not coming knocking.
Robert
We talked a few weeks ago about this and he is standing on the same ground. It cool, but very gray. You don't want to push the man (ATF) or tangle with LE, if you know what I mean. In fact, one of our customers, who happens to be a very large collector of machine-guns, went off the handle. He was stating that the paperwork that one gets back clearly states that the NFA weapon must reside at the address stated in the paperwork and in the possession and control of its owner. No exceptions. Definitely an even stronger position then what I have. And also noticed on assaultweb.com (the post you put up) was also mixed. So, I think we opened a major can of worms.
I took it upon myself to contact ATF and get a definitive answer on this issue. Only problem is that they don't take email with technical questions and it had to be done via snail mail. It going to be like that commercial, "not going anywhere for a while!". In other words, it gonna take time. We may have an answer back by Xmas if we are lucky.
I'll post either way when we get an answer.
Talked to an attorney on the Fourth issue and he kind of on your position and that there is protection. But, if they suspect foul play, lets say narcotics or some other illegal activity, they will pretty much do things by the book and do what they want to do. Kind of spooky the was he explained how the judicial and LE work hand in hand. More like, what Fourth! But the bottom line was, there is nothing to fear. They are not coming knocking.
Robert
More Information....
Here's some more info, straight from the ATF Online :
http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/nfab/index.htm
Storage of NFA Firearms
To avoid unauthorized transfers, registrants must store NFA firearms so that no one else has access to them. Firearms may be stored at locations other than the address on the firearm registration form, such as a safe deposit box. However, unless the registrant is a Federal firearms licensee who has paid the special (occupational) tax to import, manufacture, or deal in NFA firearms, the NFA Branch should be notified in writing of the new storage location.
Here's some more info, straight from the ATF Online :
http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/nfab/index.htm
Storage of NFA Firearms
To avoid unauthorized transfers, registrants must store NFA firearms so that no one else has access to them. Firearms may be stored at locations other than the address on the firearm registration form, such as a safe deposit box. However, unless the registrant is a Federal firearms licensee who has paid the special (occupational) tax to import, manufacture, or deal in NFA firearms, the NFA Branch should be notified in writing of the new storage location.