Alloy Frame Guns Ammo

If you read carefully, the testing that everyone refers to concerning the P-01 is for the Czech Police, not NATO. Unfortunately, since it had an NSN, a lot of people think that was the NATO requirement for testing.
 
Cyanide971 said:
If you read carefully, the testing that everyone refers to concerning the P-01 is for the Czech Police, not NATO. Unfortunately, since it had an NSN, a lot of people think that was the NATO requirement for testing.
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Very true. And the newest P-01s no longer carry the NSN number.

I don't think ANY of the weapons used by NATO actually are tested by NATO. NATO uses a lot of diferent weapons -- and the biggest concern seems to be ammo -- that may have to be used by allies when supplies run low.

A lot of different weapons are used in NATO, many of them available here in the U.S.: the FNP Hi-Power, until recently used by the Brits and maybe still used by others, Glocks, Walthers (or licensed variants like those used in Poland), Berettas, SIGs, Heckler & Koch, and handguns made in Turkey, as well as an odd Ruger or two, and CZs are used by the Czech Republic. Out of all of these, none of these weapons have an NSN on the weapon -- I don't think the Czech military uses P-01. All of these weapons may have met NATO specs/standards -- or not -- but as long as they can use NATO spec ammo, I suspect that's all that matters.

As best I can tell, there is no NATO testing, just NATO specifications and standards. Member countries apparently test weapons to meet their own standards, not NATO's.
 
Actually the 2015 P-01 I have has the NSN. CZ mentions on their site that they may or may not have it due to a part change (I imagine the NSN is specific to a certain design iteration), but either they did what was necessary to get it back or they're just stamping it on there. It's cool but as mentioned really not relevant.
 
I have a SIG with 10k and another with a few thousand through it as well. They've each had a pretty decent diet with +p Gold Dots and +p+ Rangers. No issues of any kind. Just make sure you grease the rails.

As Bruce Gray says Here.
 
TunnelRat said:
Actually the 2015 P-01 I have has the NSN. CZ mentions on their site that they may or may not have it due to a part change (I imagine the NSN is specific to a certain design iteration), but either they did what was necessary to get it back or they're just stamping it on there. It's cool but as mentioned really not relevant.
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The explanation I was given was that CZ made some changes to their production practices -- obstensibly to make all parts more consistent, and making total interchangeablility of parts a reality (at least for the P-01). That change caused some changes in specifications. From some point in production, about a year or so ago, they quit putting the NSN on new production. That said, I've never seen anything that makes me think that a change like that would cause a problem with NATO compliance. I wonder if it was just a move to remove a 'marketing' characteristic that didn't really matter or which was possibly a slight negative (i.e., a weapon intended for MILITARY rather than CIVILIAN use.)

At one time I was also told that CZ often made extra parts (working slides, build some extras, working frames, build some extras) and stored them until a new flock of orders came in; then, the guns were finally assembled and serial numbered (and perhaps date-stamped) as they were being readied for shipment. Some guns may have been OLDER than they seemed, even though they actually new (never having left the factory.)

If so, that might explain how CZ was able to crank out a bunch of CZ-40Ps, which used the 40B frame (slightly modified) and the P-01 frame.

These stories/explanations may all be BS...
 
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Fudd that I am-a Life Member of SNM-Sons of Neanderthal Man-one argument I use in favor steel frames is that bullseye shooters have never used them and they fire plenty of rounds. The rule still holds that high pressure/high velocity ammunition wear a gun faster that low pressure "target" rounds.
 
For many years, the P-01 carried an NSN engraved on its frame, making it the first NATO-spec pistol ever available to the public. Recently, the factory decided to upgrade the slide stop spring which in turn means the current models may not carry the NSN.
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http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-p-01-9mm-black-alloy-14-rd-mags/

Notice that it says "may not". Not "will not". Again the model I have is very recent production, second half of this past year. My 2012 had it too, though I remember one I had maybe a 2013 or 2014 that didn't have it. I've seen shipments with what were CZ Compact slides (no P-01 markings) on top of alloy frames with rails as well. Like you said, it's all probably bs. I wonder if the desire for the NSN was because people have heard of NATO and CZ thought the test by the Czech police wouldn't carry enough weight on its own, so let's get something else. It's all marketing these days. At least the marking doesn't peel off like the UID sticker on the SIG M11-A1 :rolleyes:.
 
TunnelRat's link: said:
Recently, the factory decided to upgrade the slide stop spring which in turn means the current models may not carry the NSN.
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That may have been where I first heard that argument. That said, I don't understand how CHANGING a slide-stop spring could have much effect on the slide (and CZ's ability to rollmark three characters on the slide in an area that couldn't possibly interact with the slide stop spring.)

Perhaps they're just telling us this isn't exactly the same weapon that was originally built to NATO standards, and with the changes, they're not trying to fool anyone.

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Anyone designed a gun? Anyone know the requirements? Shooters desire to own a gun that lasts forever, because shooters assume they will last forever. Neither guns nor people will last forever.

Finding out the design criteria is very difficult. Basically military firearms are designed to pass whatever competitive test the military uses. The US Military requires the weapon to shoot 6000 rounds, meet an MTBF, and have a low life cycle cost. To pass a 6000 round test with non +P ammunition the pistol must have on an average, a mean time between failures that is higher than 6000 rounds. Of course there are issues with magazine failures and the such, but overall, the barrel and frame have to last more than 6000 rounds.

Bulky, heavy guns will get tossed out of the competition if they are heavier than what the military wants. Any fool could make a 7 lb, 9mm pistol, that lasts forever. Who would want to carry the thing?

I am of the opinion that guns are designed to last, on the average, for tens of thousands of rounds. Like 10,000 rounds. How many shooters shoot 10,000 rounds anyway? There are a few, but not many. I talked to the All Guard team, they shoot their M1911's until they get loose. Rebuild them about three times. The pistols will wear out in two to three years of competition. These are old WW2 frames and slides though. Parts do break, and they get replaced.

As for alloy frames, heck yes, take it easy on aluminum alloy frames. Aluminum does not have the fatigue life of steel. At some round count in the future, aluminum will fatigue fracture. If the stress level is low enough, steel can have an infinite fatigue life. I don't know if the stresses in pistols are kept that low, because it requires adding steel for an infinite fatigue life. That increases weight. Just how are sales of 7 lb 9mm's doing right now? I know based on my reverse engineering of rifle bolts, they don't have an infinite fatigue life, I do not expect that cylinders, barrels, will either.

Take it easy on your pistols. Why fire the hottest loads in the things to bust rocks?
 
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