AK-47 vs. M-16

Are you planning in going solo into territory controled by AK wielding shock troops, to rescue nuns and missionaries?
Take the weapon the locals are using.
Ammo resupply & parts are available and you sound like the natives when you touch off a round.

Are you planning in being in a large American force transported to a conflict with full suppy chains in place?
I think the US armed forces provide the proper arms.
;)

Are you planning on shooting rifles at rifle ranges on sunny days with a thermos and a pizza?
Get one of each, while you can.

dZ
 
I had this same question, so I bought one of each - Bushamster AR-15 w/ 20" barrel, and a VEPR II AK-47 from Robinson Arms. I have never had reliability problems with either. Accuracy? I get 3" MOA with my AR-15 and 4" MOA with my AK (this is real accuracy, not pick my favorite shots and count those only). With a scope, accuracy on my AR is 1.5". Haven't mounted a scope on my AK yet, so its true accuracy is unknown.
 
Have never had a failure with
my four ARs..Cases of ammunition shot through
them.

In three gun matches have seen failures with
ARs.

Have never seen a failure of any kind with an
AK; anytime, anywhere.

If reliablity is the key; the AK.
If accuracy is the key; the AR.
 
This is going to take a while...

(part of this is cut and paste from a post I made here last June or thereabouts)

The M-16 is an example of Western military thought: a rifle more accurate than the soldier, designed for ease of use and soldiers trained in accurate semi-auto fire at the cost of greater expense, both in the rifle and in the soldier.

The Kalashnikov series is an example of Eastern military thought: inexpensive to mass produce, durable, simple to use for soldiers of any education, and intended for soldiers trained in massed suppresive full automatic fire.

In general, Klatch-armed sodiers such as the old Soviet Red Army were never trained in semi-auto and accuracy. They were only trained in full auto for the sequence of
-devastating artillery barrage
-tank and APC fire to somewhat close range
-full auto AK and machine gun fire as the final assault fire where the soldiers make the final rush to virtually same-foxhole range where accuracy is not vitally important and kills are made as much as with buttstocks and entrenching tools as AK fire.

OK, that's the theory. In practice Western rifles can be used for suppression and mad minutes and Klatchs can be used in semi-auto aimed fire. A lot of battlefield experience changed peacetime theory. One example was the Soviet Army in Afghanistan equipping whole squads with Dragunov SVD sniper rifles for anti-guerilla activity. The spray/pray/charge-into-melee method didn't work well at all against Afghan rebels using hit and run guerilla tactics.

Military 7.62x39 Klatch ammo seems to make very clean, survivable wounds. There is hollow point ammunition available in 7.62x39 which appears to make for nastier wounds. BUT...

When people talk about Kalashnikovs, they talk only about the AK-47 like it's the only Klatch out there. Most American AK-tale-tellers don't seem to realize the different generations of military AKs.

The AK-47 is the original design which uses a forged receiver and shoots 7.62x39. The AKM is what replaced the AK-47 in the 1950s in most Soviet factories and uses a sheet metal receiver to make mass production easier. It also makes the rifle lighter. AKMs also shoot 7.62x39.

Sometime in the 70's the AK-74 (not a typo) was designed and was well on it's way to replacing the AKM in the Soviet military. Apparently, the Soviet Army was impressed with the concept of the micro-caliber rifle like the M-16 because the AK-74 is in 5.45 caliber and creates horrific wounds similar to the NATO 5.56mm. Once again, most American AK-people don't seem to be aware that the AK-74 was the primary rifle of the 1980s Soviet military. Afghans found out all about the AK-74 during the war there. The 5.45 quickly became known as the "poison bullet" because of the way flesh around the wound rotted and died. This isn't just limited to the AK-74 round. Both the Combloc 5.45mm and NATO 5.56mm will both almost guarantee a very ugly wound and slow death unless you can get to a very good hospital ASAP. Everyone read the article in the village voice recently about the wound trauma seen in Palestinians shot with 5.56mm? I don't normally read the VV but internet talk on the gun forums got my attention.

There are some newer designs in the last 10 years that I'm not too familiar with. I dunno that the post-Cold War Russian military is in any shape to shift wholesale to a new rifle.

Note that Soviet satellite states still have/had a lot of AK-47/AKM rifles. Some may never have switched to the AK-74 standard. Also, many Cold War era revolutions armed by Uncle Ivan were supplied with the AK-47/AKM rifles. Might as well use all those warehouses full of rifles for something.

Viet Nam vet info: I've read and heard from several Viet Nam era veterans. All info matches the fact that the first production batch of M-16s was an abomination and the later improved ones worked much MUCH better. There's a USMC vet in our office who was there in '68-'69 or thereabouts. I asked if he had any of the first jamm-a-matic M-16s. He said he did, and cured it by eating at an Army mess hall, where you had to leave your rifle at the door. Funny, when he left he had a brand new M-16.

I also know a guy who ran a hospital in a third world country for a while. The ONLY hospital in the country torn with inter-tribal strife. He saw many AK wounds and said most of the time if a bone or vital organ wasn't hit they cleaned and bound the wound, administered antibiotics and that was all that was needed usually. In other words, another anecdote that military 7.62x39 wounds are very clean
(he ran the hospital back before the AK-74s were prolific)

Nowadays, about all the established rifle designs work very well. I know a guy who was dead convinced that the Klatch was the way to go and was out to prove it. He actually bought a Galil, an AR, and a Klatch and carefully recorded the number of shots fired through each one, intending to stop when one was hopelessly jammed. He quit somewhere between 2000 and 3000 rounds per rifle, having recorded 2 minor malfunctions in the Galil and the Klatch, and 1 minor malfunction in the AR. He concluded correctly that any modern military rifle design will work very well.

Note that the best Kalashnikovs may shoot up to 8 inch groups at 100 yards (there ARE exceptions) while most ARs will shoot a 1 inch group with ease at the same distance (assuming the shooter is up to it). Does this mean I'm going to go nyahh nyahh nyahh when Charlie Cong is shooting an AK at me? NO!!! Which do I want if I'm making a hostage-rescue shot at 12 yards? (actually I'd want my bolt gun)

I will say that the AR will NOT stand up to hard abuse which arguably a military rifle ought to withstand. When people hang a buncha doodads and gizmos on the AR, the durability issue goes downhill fast.

Also, commercial ARs have apparently taken a downturn in quality in the past several years. In my experience an AR can be a VERY reliable rifle (with TLC) but they all need a wringing out at the range to find any problems before completely trusting your life to one. Actually, the same goes for any gun we plan on staking our life on. I've seen as many as 5 out of 12 rifles in a class needing a widget replaced, and then after that they work fine.

I think a good summary is the AR is a white collar rifle, well suited to police (assuming they take good care of their equipment!) who might need a patrol rifle. The Kalashnikov family is a blue collar rifle. Naw, it's a third world peasant rifle! Throw it in the musty dusty Nicaraguan arms room and it'll be good to go a century from now (but I'd still check it out before going on a patrol).

As far as equipment goes, I prefer an AR though I can comfortably use either a Klatch, Galil, AR, AUG, Daewoo, and others. I have a Daewoo and a Galil and I still prefer the AR.

As far as the key to what works in a Really Bad Day (RBD), I'd rather have a well-trained brain between the ears than whatever the best rifle is. Put another way, a good man with an average rifle does a lot better than an average man with a good rifle.

Whew I'm pooped. Baby, you wear out my fingertips :D

Edmund
 
Edmund, that was interesting, thanks. Please except 2 little corections and one note:

Correction #1: When I was in the Soviet Army (20 years ago),
we were trained to shoot AK in semi-auto, I do not remember
being trained to shoot full-auto, although I did it several
times, but not it was not really training. Of course, machinegunners training was the different story.

Correction #2: Accuracy potential of AK-47 is better
than 8 inches at 100 yards. Some of our guys shot 3-4 inches at 100 meters. Our drill sergant could do even better, but he had quite a bit of practice in his career.

Just a note: yes, theoretically M-16 is more accurate,
"one shot-one kill" weapon and stuff. Practically, there is
some kind of statistics out there - 70,000 rounds of 5.56
per one dead enemy in Vietnam...Now, tell me if you really think 1" group capability is so terribly important in a
real battle conditions.
 
My civilian AKs have never failed me.

Military M-16s have failed me MANY times.

I had such a bad opinion of the M-16 when I was in that I would rather have ANYTHING else, including the M-9.

I prefered the Shotgun when I could get it.

I have never seen the Mythical RELIABLE M-16.

The Unicorns must have them all.
 
my MAK-90 has never once failed me, and i have never once cleaned it. and i only shoot wolf ammo. i lay it down in the dirt at the range. accuracy sucks but if i had to go into combat, i think 8" groups at 100 yards would more than suffice.
 
Glad to meet you, Oris!

If I may, allow me to ask some questions about your experience in the Soviet Red Army?

-Were you issued one specific rifle which was your responsibility?
-What did you like about your AK? (reliability, ease of shooting accurately, ease of cleaning, etc.)
-What did you not like about your AK?
-How often did your unit train with live ammunition?

And 2 questions unrelated to AK vs AR rifles:

-Did you train with entrenching tools in hand to hand combat?
-How long did you stay inside your chemical warfare gear in training? After seeing some Russian chem gear, I am very curious.

I am glad we can discuss our hobbies here in the post-Cold War era.

Edmund
 
Practical accuracy is what a assault rifle is for not pinpoint accuracy.
Pin point accuracy is what sniper rifles are for.

I have a good friend that is into training and I have some respect for him and he loves his ar-15 and loathes the ak-47.WHY? He says because he is a law enforcement officer he needs the pin point accuracy due to liability issues and the fact he gets to pick his shots.

The ar -15 in this type of role works well because it can and has filled both roles.
However the fact remains that most ar-15 in a average to above average rifleman's hands will do 1-2.5 inches on the bench.but this does not mean he can do that under field conditions.that is why I feel that the ak-47 has enough practical accuracy( 3to 4 inches on the bench)to get the job done

Go to one rifle class anywhere where there is at least 12 students and you can place Vegas odds on what guns are going down first.its always the ar-15's and the quality control problems the guns are facing.there are too many butcher basement wanna be gunsmiths out there and too many home grown book reading wannabes that build these guns from whatever source has the cheapest price, building these guns that they take no regard in how they are built and of what componants they use to build them.

there is also the fact that the manufactures(all of them at one time or another) of these guns are skimping on cost of production to satisfy the market.

no matter how crappy a ak-47 looks or is put together it will still work everytime and shoot consistantly!!!!

i love both guns so dont flame me but if i need to have a good day i will get my ak!!!!:):):)
 
AK-47 vs.M16

The first rifle I was issued in Vietnam was and old beat up M-16 that jammed about every third round, but I only kept it for a few days before it was rendered inoperable and got lost, amazing how that happened, and I got a new one from a wounded marine. The second one worked perfectly, until I traded it off for something better. We picked up some Ak's and shot them a lot and they always worked but you couldn't hit a bull in the butt unless it was spray amd pray. They have very loose tolerances and make a lot of noise when you dis engage the safety. We were supposed to turn all automatic weapons in and we could keep the semi-autos as war trophys but some of the AK's didn't get turned in and we keep some of them in our bunkers , along with a lot of ammo. We had some fun with the AK's but I wouldn't pick one up to defend my self with.
 
Wow. Didn't realize I was going to open such a can of worms. Cool!
I guess that if I had to go into battle and had a choice, I would grab the AK just for the reliablity factor. It would be more important that the thing go bang when I really needed it to than be a few inches off at 100 yards. If a spot opened up in my gun safe, I would actually get neither. The AR has never really floated my boat, and the AK, while nasty looking, doesn't have the add-on's that I like. So I would either end up with a tricked-out Mini-14 or an M-1 Garand. The mini would be just because I can get so many goodies for it, the M1 because I am a bit of a WWII history buff. Thanks all for your input!
 
dZ

""""""Your Post.

Are you planning in going solo into territory controled by AK wielding shock troops, to rescue nuns and missionaries?
Take the weapon the locals are using.
Ammo resupply & parts are available and you sound like the natives when you touch off a round.""""""

DZ,

You may sound like the locals if you touch a round off but if you're in an African country and you're not an African American I think you'll be in trouble your white skin will kind of standout. I think recuse missions should be left to the military.

A good example is a few years back I was traveling through 3 different West African countries and one time we came upon a road check (toll). The soldier was carrying a AK. My first thoughts were OK I know how to use an AK if things go bad but then reality set in. So what??? I'm about 600 miles from the coast and kind out stand out among the locals. Actually the soldier was pretty nice but he did want something besides the toll Did we have anything to read he was bored to death at the check point.

Turk
 
well i figured maybe the Walter Mitty mall ninja's have access to
Barney from IM Force's amazing instant rubber face mask kit.
;)
IMHO most of the TFL readers are Thermos and pizza at the range black rifle shooters
The only thing i have in my house from Barney is purple with green spots.
:)
 
For me (I have a Mak90 and ARs) the AR wins hands down for pointability. I prefer AR, M1 carbine and short Garand to full-length Garand, AK/Mak90 and FAL based on my ability to bring one on target fast and accurately. Never got my guns dirty enough so can't say about malfunctions. What I can say is that an AR15 is easier to clean and sights are a lot better even with an aperture added to the AK (twice the sight radius).
 
M16A3 or M4 carbine. I wouldn't want the A2 because it is 3-rnd burst only. I'd rather have full auto, even though the selector would probably be on semi the whole time.
 
I've spent some time in the infantry, though I've never used a rifle in combat. I would feel confident if my unit was supplied with either weapon as its basic rifle. I'm talking for military use here, not varmint hunting or hunting grizzly bears. Nor for replacing the SAW, GPMG, etc.

Frankly, except for ammo compatibility issues, I think you could replace the three M16A2s per fireteam with AKs and leave the SAW (and mounting a M203 under one of the AKs), and the fireteam would retain basically the same capabilities.

I hate to say this, but half the grunts out there are not good enough shots that the difference in inherent accuracy between the AK and M16A2 wouldn't make a difference where the rubber meets the road. This doesn't apply to any of you studs on TFL, of course.

An M16A2 that hasn't been totally thrashed and abused by several generations of grunts is sufficiently reliable in this role, and an AK is sufficiently accurate for the general purpose role. I assume we're not talking about replacing the M40s with either M16A2s or AKs - that would be ridiculous. In a Designated Marksman role, the M16A2 is clearly superior to the AK, but we're talking about a general purpose rifle.

On a related note, I'm not convinced that we need a selective-fire weapon in this role. Each 4-man fireteam has a SAW which can lay down a FA base of fire; there's no need for the entire team to have FA capabilities. But assuming one was selected (as we have done in the US), I'd prefer a weapon with FA capability rather than 3-round burst, which appears to me to be the answer to a question that no one asked. In the rare instances when you need FA, you need FA, not some gimmicky semi-FA.
 
Edmund, here is what I can tell you in regard to your questions:

-Were you issued one specific rifle which was your responsibility?

Yes, I was issued one and the only AK. It was used AK-47,
but it was in pretty good shape. Needless to say, none of
currently imported "civil" AKs comes close to the quality
and finish of Russian military AK of 1970's.

I also shot AK-74 a couple of times, but it was not my issued weapon.

-What did you like about your AK? (reliability, ease of shooting accurately, ease of cleaning, etc.)

Honestly, I do not know what I liked. It was the only combat weapon I've used until that time. Cleaning was real easy, we were trained to field strip AK in under 10 seconds and put it back, if I recall correctly, in 15 or so. It was not a big challenge to hit man sized target at 100 meters, a bit more difficult to so the same at 200 meters. Anyway, I thought it was cool, couldn't compare with anything else. We had a shooting team, which shot at normal sporting type targets, so I know that 3-4 inches were quite possible at 100 meters. Reliability was always 100%, never saw AK jamming or refusing to fire, unless magazine was empty. Never saw broken AK, possibly there were few somewhere, but none ever broke in my presence.

-What did you not like about your AK?

We had to run 5 km with it. At that moment I didn't like it.

-How often did your unit train with live ammunition?

Not often. May be once a month. The funny thing that some of us were picked up (to help the fun-loving officers) to waste the rest of the ammo which was left after every planned training. For some reason, there were always some considerable leftovers, which had to be wasted to be square on books. Once I was picked up and had some fun with firing
AK full-auto. BTW, AK-47 is not an accurate shooter in full auto, unless at a very close range. AK-74 is a different story, it's pretty loud but have very little recoil, so
it's possible to shoot relatively accurately in full-auto.

And 2 questions unrelated to AK vs AR rifles:

-Did you train with entrenching tools in hand to hand combat?

No, we were not trained to use shavel as an axe or a shield,
but we were told that shavel can be used in this role. I believe that paratroopers are trained to use shavel in this role, and they're also trained with knife (bayonet), of course. BTW, I really like AK bayonet - it's the strongest
knife I ever handles, nearly impossible to break.

-How long did you stay inside your chemical warfare gear in training? After seeing some Russian chem gear, I am very curious.

I do not remember exactly, but I would say may be 2 hours max. This outfit was really uncomforatble. For me, it was only one time deal, we were just kind of introduced to this stuff. However, training with anti-gas masks was pretty common, including a bit of running and spending some time in a tent with some tear gas.
 
This is by far the most interesting AK V AR thread I have read! Now for my personal observations:

While in Iraq, we picked up numerous combloc weapons. The AK's weren't the problem but the ammo supplied to those poor folks was awful! The rifles would fire, but twice out of a few hundred rounds the projectile just almost didn't make it out of the barrel. I suppose that Iraq was more concerned with rifles than ammo, and in that regard, it didn't matter what rifle was being used 'cause the ammo sucked. Maybe they were only trying to save money by letting 3rd graders reload ammo for the army (everyone over the 3rd grade was busy killing Iranians in the 80's if I recollect).

Their policies were very short-sighted. They had the undisputed best field artillery pieces in the world (South African manufacture IIRC), yet they didn't have any RADAR for counter-battery fire which just tore them up.

As far as my BM goes, we had a hard time at first. Apparently, Bushmasters need some break-in because after the first few hundred rounds, it has functioned without failure. I believe that the tolerances between the bolt and bolt carrier were a bit tight, so I used really fine sandpaper and now she shoots without a hitch and quite accurately I might add. I have yet to find a rifle be it AK or AR that isn't way more accurate than I am (I suck, but like the sound of the bang!).

When the black helicopters come after me in my fortified compound, or when the aliens attack, I won't be using either the AR or AK, but my Garand. Same for my many missions into the dark jungles to rescue missionaries and nuns. There's just something manly about an M1 Garand, plus it also has more ammo options like AP, API, and the usual stuff. Almost as accurate as the AR, and just as reliable as the AK (not bad for a 60 year old rifle), not to mention that it has more energy at 300 yards than either the AK or AR have at the muzzle. Support DCM and get one today!
 
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