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AK-47 & AK-74?
- Thread starter boxjeff
- Start date
TylerD45ACP
New member
AKM or the 47. The 7.62x39 offers a great deal more stopping power than the 5.45x39. I would take the AK47 over an AK74 any day but it is all up to you. Stamped recievers are inferior to milled one's a stamped out piece of metal will always be weaker than a machined one. Get the 7.52x39 when I had my WASR 10 to shoot it was fun. Not that much recoil at all. Decent accuracy but it was not what I would call a very accurate gun. I wouldnt use one past 250-300Yds.
I would not consider the stamped inferior. The European AKMs are made of some incredibly tough steel. Plus, you can tighten up the magazine well by applying a little pressure with a c-clamp. AKs can be annoying with a shaky magazine.
Also, for what it's worth, every Egyptian AK I have ever seen has been crap. Stick to the European and Chinese ones and inspect them very carefully. Treat it as milsurp purchase.
Also, for what it's worth, every Egyptian AK I have ever seen has been crap. Stick to the European and Chinese ones and inspect them very carefully. Treat it as milsurp purchase.
There's not any measurable reason to say that stamped receivers are inferior to milled on an AK. People often assume and say the rifles with milled receivers are more accurate and more durable but there's not any evidence to support that assertion so one may as well save on weight (and money) and go with stamped.
Basically, the "gold standard" for AK's seem to the Arsenal SGL-21 (7.62x39 and SGL-31 (5.45x39).
Basically, the "gold standard" for AK's seem to the Arsenal SGL-21 (7.62x39 and SGL-31 (5.45x39).
Buy this book and read it.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0982391803/ref=redir_mdp_mobile/183-8317873-3993245
All you need to know on almost every popular variant.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0982391803/ref=redir_mdp_mobile/183-8317873-3993245
All you need to know on almost every popular variant.
AK quality has to do with a couple of things:
A) parts quality- where did they come from
B) build quality- who built it
Pre-ban Romanian like the Romak, Ratmil, and Cugir are all examples of good romanian AKM/AK74s. Quality is still not on par with russian guns.
WASRs can range from decent to extremely bad. Most of the bad reputation that AKs have earned over the years (in America) are from poorly assembled WASRs from century arms international (CAI) which usually include poor quality parts as well. Most of these guns were built using surplus romanian parts( well used and abuse) as well as rejected parts. Common problems include, canted front sight tower, excessive mag wobble (due to poor conversion of the magwell) as well as other issues. When they used to be sub $250 they were worth it, but not they are quite a bit more and your better off avoiding them in general.
Bulgarian and russian AKs are generally considered the best in the post-ban era. Arsenal has been the primary builder for bulgarian parts kits and their quality is top notch. Russian AKs come into the country as unconverted Saiga rifles. Many companies do simple conversions, but only a few like arsenal actually return them to AK-100 spec. The difference can be a few hundred dollars, and its up to you whether you want an authentic looking AK or not.
The best AK variants to be ever be made were Valmets and Galils, but those are ridiculously expensive and parts are almost impossible to get. Chinese AKs are very good quality but you will pay a huge premium since they have not imported any of them for a long time. They are not generally worth the expense unless you want a collectors peice. So I would avoid all three of these.
Egyptian AKs were the WASRs before there were WASRs, and the quality of the fit and finish is generally poor, but they are serviceable.
There are also a number of American "made" AKs out there, but non of them are 100% american made. Generally you will pay a premium for these AKs even though they are not much better than a WASR.
Companies to stay away from at all costs
- Hesse/Vulcan/blackthorne (horrible company that changes names)
- Lancaster arms (a complete crook)
- Elite Arms ( complete tool and a crook)
All three of those have huge amounts of complaints with the better business bureau as well as other legal troubles with local municipalities due to fraud claims.
Companies to be careful of:
- Century arms international: On occasion they can make a decent weapon, but it is often a gamble and even a careful inspection may not show all the problems. You will often spend just as much fixing the problems as you would have if you had just bought a better AK in the first place. They are banking on the fact that they have the cheapest product on the market and an ignorant consumer base. This philosophy is shown with their 1 year warranty that starts as soon as their rifles leave the factory (not when you take first ownership) which means it can often be expired or nearly so when you buy it as the original owner at a gunshop. Not everything with the century label is crap because they are the largest arms importer/exporter, they do bring in alot of stuff that is simply stamped with their name. However their conversions and kit builds should be avoided, and this especially includes their Tantels which had 5.56 barrels installed instead of 5.45 and constantly keyhole. They knew about this problem, yet continued to do nothing about it. If you want a Tantel buy it from another manufacturer.
Long story short, if you want a good quality AK you can not go wrong with an Arsenal AK. Several other builders like Red Jacket and Krebs are also renowned custom builders that do excellent work.
If you want the best Accuracy you going to find it from an AK100 series bulgarian SLR-106 in 5.56 from Arsenal. 7.62x39 does not lend itself well to long range accuracy because it is ballistically similar to the .30-30. Saiga .308s are great platforms if you want to customize it into a DMR.
As far as the Stamped vs Milled debate. Milled guns simply have a heavier receiver that is more expensive to make. They are neither more accurate nor more reliable. Basically they only add excessive weight. If this does not bother you and you can get one for the same price as a stamped gun then go for it, but there really is no benefit, which is why nobody made milled guns once stamped AKs came along.
Also there are lots of AK variants.
WASR-10= AKM
Arsenal SLR= AK-100 series
Saiga= AK-100 series
You will also find numerous AK-74 kits out there.
A) parts quality- where did they come from
B) build quality- who built it
Pre-ban Romanian like the Romak, Ratmil, and Cugir are all examples of good romanian AKM/AK74s. Quality is still not on par with russian guns.
WASRs can range from decent to extremely bad. Most of the bad reputation that AKs have earned over the years (in America) are from poorly assembled WASRs from century arms international (CAI) which usually include poor quality parts as well. Most of these guns were built using surplus romanian parts( well used and abuse) as well as rejected parts. Common problems include, canted front sight tower, excessive mag wobble (due to poor conversion of the magwell) as well as other issues. When they used to be sub $250 they were worth it, but not they are quite a bit more and your better off avoiding them in general.
Bulgarian and russian AKs are generally considered the best in the post-ban era. Arsenal has been the primary builder for bulgarian parts kits and their quality is top notch. Russian AKs come into the country as unconverted Saiga rifles. Many companies do simple conversions, but only a few like arsenal actually return them to AK-100 spec. The difference can be a few hundred dollars, and its up to you whether you want an authentic looking AK or not.
The best AK variants to be ever be made were Valmets and Galils, but those are ridiculously expensive and parts are almost impossible to get. Chinese AKs are very good quality but you will pay a huge premium since they have not imported any of them for a long time. They are not generally worth the expense unless you want a collectors peice. So I would avoid all three of these.
Egyptian AKs were the WASRs before there were WASRs, and the quality of the fit and finish is generally poor, but they are serviceable.
There are also a number of American "made" AKs out there, but non of them are 100% american made. Generally you will pay a premium for these AKs even though they are not much better than a WASR.
Companies to stay away from at all costs
- Hesse/Vulcan/blackthorne (horrible company that changes names)
- Lancaster arms (a complete crook)
- Elite Arms ( complete tool and a crook)
All three of those have huge amounts of complaints with the better business bureau as well as other legal troubles with local municipalities due to fraud claims.
Companies to be careful of:
- Century arms international: On occasion they can make a decent weapon, but it is often a gamble and even a careful inspection may not show all the problems. You will often spend just as much fixing the problems as you would have if you had just bought a better AK in the first place. They are banking on the fact that they have the cheapest product on the market and an ignorant consumer base. This philosophy is shown with their 1 year warranty that starts as soon as their rifles leave the factory (not when you take first ownership) which means it can often be expired or nearly so when you buy it as the original owner at a gunshop. Not everything with the century label is crap because they are the largest arms importer/exporter, they do bring in alot of stuff that is simply stamped with their name. However their conversions and kit builds should be avoided, and this especially includes their Tantels which had 5.56 barrels installed instead of 5.45 and constantly keyhole. They knew about this problem, yet continued to do nothing about it. If you want a Tantel buy it from another manufacturer.
Long story short, if you want a good quality AK you can not go wrong with an Arsenal AK. Several other builders like Red Jacket and Krebs are also renowned custom builders that do excellent work.
If you want the best Accuracy you going to find it from an AK100 series bulgarian SLR-106 in 5.56 from Arsenal. 7.62x39 does not lend itself well to long range accuracy because it is ballistically similar to the .30-30. Saiga .308s are great platforms if you want to customize it into a DMR.
As far as the Stamped vs Milled debate. Milled guns simply have a heavier receiver that is more expensive to make. They are neither more accurate nor more reliable. Basically they only add excessive weight. If this does not bother you and you can get one for the same price as a stamped gun then go for it, but there really is no benefit, which is why nobody made milled guns once stamped AKs came along.
Also there are lots of AK variants.
WASR-10= AKM
Arsenal SLR= AK-100 series
Saiga= AK-100 series
You will also find numerous AK-74 kits out there.
Dfariswheel
New member
To answer the original question:
The Arsenal Inc conversion SGL rifles are the best AK's on the market.
The basic rifle is manufactured in Russia by Izhmash, the original and current maker of military full-auto AK rifles.
They manufacture a sporting version they call a Saiga.
They make a special model just for Arsenal, which is easier to convert.
Once in American, Arsenal converts it to AK-74 standards.
These are as close as we'll ever get to an original military full-auto AK rifle.
For what caliber, the most widely available caliber ammo is the 7.62x39.
This is available in a variety of loadings by a number of makers by Russian factories who made and still make Russian military ammo.
This commercial Russian ammo is non-corrosive.
It's also available as expanding bullet sporting ammo from several American makers.
The down side is that most of the cheap military surplus ammo is no longer available.
The 5.45x39 is also an excellent round.
The down side is that there aren't many commercial loadings, most being Russian commercial.
Hornady is selling a new round with a Hornady expanding bullet loaded in a Russian made steel case.
All this commercial ammo is non-corrosive.
The up side to the 5.45x39 is the availability of CHEAP Soviet era military surplus ammo.
This ammo features the infamous "Poison" or "Devil's" bullet that tumbles when it hits.
This ammo is sold in 1080 round sealed cans for about $140 a can by surplus importers like Aim.
It's corrosive, so you have to flush the barrel and gas system with hot water before normal cleaning with bore solvent.
The 5.45x39 is slightly more accurate then the 7.62x39, is effective over longer ranges, and has very little recoil.
So, the Arsenal Inc SGL rifles are the best out of the box AK rifles on the market.
If you want to hunt larger game, the 7.62 would probably be better, and the ammo is easier to find.
The 5.45 military surplus ammo is excellent on game from smaller deer on down, and the ammo is CHEAP.
If you go with the 5.45, just buy as many cans as you can afford and you won't have to worry about finding ammo.
As for the milled versus stamped receiver AK rifle, US military personnel who've been in Africa have reported seeing stamped AK rifles that were so old and fired so much that the rifling was virtually gone and the rifle was still shooting.
Apparently very few people on earth have fired a stamped AK rifle enough to actually wear the receiver out.
The Arsenal Inc conversion SGL rifles are the best AK's on the market.
The basic rifle is manufactured in Russia by Izhmash, the original and current maker of military full-auto AK rifles.
They manufacture a sporting version they call a Saiga.
They make a special model just for Arsenal, which is easier to convert.
Once in American, Arsenal converts it to AK-74 standards.
These are as close as we'll ever get to an original military full-auto AK rifle.
For what caliber, the most widely available caliber ammo is the 7.62x39.
This is available in a variety of loadings by a number of makers by Russian factories who made and still make Russian military ammo.
This commercial Russian ammo is non-corrosive.
It's also available as expanding bullet sporting ammo from several American makers.
The down side is that most of the cheap military surplus ammo is no longer available.
The 5.45x39 is also an excellent round.
The down side is that there aren't many commercial loadings, most being Russian commercial.
Hornady is selling a new round with a Hornady expanding bullet loaded in a Russian made steel case.
All this commercial ammo is non-corrosive.
The up side to the 5.45x39 is the availability of CHEAP Soviet era military surplus ammo.
This ammo features the infamous "Poison" or "Devil's" bullet that tumbles when it hits.
This ammo is sold in 1080 round sealed cans for about $140 a can by surplus importers like Aim.
It's corrosive, so you have to flush the barrel and gas system with hot water before normal cleaning with bore solvent.
The 5.45x39 is slightly more accurate then the 7.62x39, is effective over longer ranges, and has very little recoil.
So, the Arsenal Inc SGL rifles are the best out of the box AK rifles on the market.
If you want to hunt larger game, the 7.62 would probably be better, and the ammo is easier to find.
The 5.45 military surplus ammo is excellent on game from smaller deer on down, and the ammo is CHEAP.
If you go with the 5.45, just buy as many cans as you can afford and you won't have to worry about finding ammo.
As for the milled versus stamped receiver AK rifle, US military personnel who've been in Africa have reported seeing stamped AK rifles that were so old and fired so much that the rifling was virtually gone and the rifle was still shooting.
Apparently very few people on earth have fired a stamped AK rifle enough to actually wear the receiver out.
Ammo supply is the defining factor. The 7.62x39 ammo is going to be more available than 5.45 so a person would need to have all the 5.45 ammo he would expect to need on hand. The ammo functionality is another factor as there is some amount of incompatibility between some 5.45 rifles and some types of 5.45 ammo. I have both with a large stock of usable 5.45 ammo/mags. The AK74 is finished when the ammo is depleted while the AR upper is unpinned and replaced.
The AK74 is finished when the ammo is depleted while the AR upper is unpinned and replaced.
Why would you make that assumption? The only thing that disappears when the surplus dries up is the cheap surplus. 7.62x39 did not dry up when surplus ran out because it was still being made by foreign manufacturers and there are several companies making 7.62x39 in the states. the only thing that happens when surplus dries up is that you have to buy more expensive new production ammo.
Wolf, silver bear and tula make ammo in 5.45 that is imported. Hornady also makes bullets for reloaders.
Sturmgewehre
New member
Gelgoog,
All good info on the AK. The only correction I would make is that Century is now making a 100% American made AK.
It's called the Centurion 39.
http://centuryarms.biz/proddetail.asp?prod=RI1622-N
As with most things made by Century, buyer beware. Century is not known for building good quality firearms nor are they known for their warranty. Their warranty starts the day they manufacture the rifle, not the day you buy it. I bought a Century rifle last year that was a year old already, but it was NIB as sold by my dealer. When I went to get the faulty barrel replaced, Century informed me my brand new rifle that I had a receipt for was out of warranty.
All good info on the AK. The only correction I would make is that Century is now making a 100% American made AK.
It's called the Centurion 39.
http://centuryarms.biz/proddetail.asp?prod=RI1622-N
As with most things made by Century, buyer beware. Century is not known for building good quality firearms nor are they known for their warranty. Their warranty starts the day they manufacture the rifle, not the day you buy it. I bought a Century rifle last year that was a year old already, but it was NIB as sold by my dealer. When I went to get the faulty barrel replaced, Century informed me my brand new rifle that I had a receipt for was out of warranty.
As far as Arsenal quality...people should view the following videos...I changed my mind.
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrAk47master#p/u/10/riIXDi0RAcI
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrAk47master#p/search/0/4PQ47VqCHmQ
This is simply a great one! (Legal open carry of an AK)
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrAk47master#p/u/0/pUd_00Xrf_U
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrAk47master#p/u/10/riIXDi0RAcI
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrAk47master#p/search/0/4PQ47VqCHmQ
This is simply a great one! (Legal open carry of an AK)
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrAk47master#p/u/0/pUd_00Xrf_U
Sturmgewehre
New member
Boxjeff,
MrAK47 has been discredited more times than one could imagine.
His video is full of misinformation and his rabid anti-Arsenal rhetoric would make most rational people have pause when considering his message.
If Arsenals were such junk, you would find far more than this one guy talking about it. Most people that appreciate AK's find Arsenal rifles to be among the best available right now. The world over, Russian made AK's are considered to be among the best (Arsenal SGL's are Russian made). This is true of Bulgarian AK's as well, both of which Arsenal sells.
MrAK47 has been discredited more times than one could imagine.
His video is full of misinformation and his rabid anti-Arsenal rhetoric would make most rational people have pause when considering his message.
If Arsenals were such junk, you would find far more than this one guy talking about it. Most people that appreciate AK's find Arsenal rifles to be among the best available right now. The world over, Russian made AK's are considered to be among the best (Arsenal SGL's are Russian made). This is true of Bulgarian AK's as well, both of which Arsenal sells.
I have had 3 Arsenals (still own 2) and have over 10 Aks total (ranging from WASRs to Valmets and krebs), and I can tell you that Arsenals are definitely good to go. You can not buy the parts and build an AK-100 series rifle like Arsenal does for a cheaper price.
OP: if you tell us what kind of AK you want in what caliber then maybe we can point you in the right direction.
Caliber?
AKM? AK-100? AK-74?
Stock style: Straight? Side folder? underfolder?
Price range?
OP: if you tell us what kind of AK you want in what caliber then maybe we can point you in the right direction.
Caliber?
AKM? AK-100? AK-74?
Stock style: Straight? Side folder? underfolder?
Price range?
Arsenals are AK-100 series rifles, which means they are pretty much a modernized AK-74m. AKM/ AK-74 parts are not interchangeable because they are not the same gun.
An AK-100 5.56 bolt carrier is not going to fit in a 7.62x39 gun. Likewise an AKM gas block is not going to fit on an AK-74.
Besides interchangeable parts are not that big of a deal. Part failures on AKs are extremely uncommon, and there is a huge aftermarket allowing you a multitude of parts for any AK variant you want if you wish to change them out.
An AK-100 5.56 bolt carrier is not going to fit in a 7.62x39 gun. Likewise an AKM gas block is not going to fit on an AK-74.
Besides interchangeable parts are not that big of a deal. Part failures on AKs are extremely uncommon, and there is a huge aftermarket allowing you a multitude of parts for any AK variant you want if you wish to change them out.
Sturmgewehre
New member
I own 4 Arsenals that can been seen in a number of videos I produce on my Youtube channel (I do gear reviews). I have never found a single after market part that doesn't fit an Arsenal rifle.
If you're talking about internals, see my most recent video. The AK100 series has a number of improvements over the original design internally. These improvements came from the mind of Mr. Kalashnikov himself.
If you're talking about internals, see my most recent video. The AK100 series has a number of improvements over the original design internally. These improvements came from the mind of Mr. Kalashnikov himself.
Sturmgewehre
New member
Considering Chinese AK's have been banned from import for many years, the best place to find them is on the used gun market. Check your used gun rack at your local gun shop or surf the multitude of websites dedicated to firearms sales.