Airsoft Force On Force Training: Serious Reservations

I say go for it. Tell them you are interested in attending and ask them to observe a class. If the instructors treat the airsoft guns like real firearms and give good instruction, it can't hurt. Paint ball COULD be good for tactical training, but there are so many paint ball guns that are super rapid fire with zero regard for collateral damage (bystander).

Unless you do any sort of IPSC, PPC, IDPA style shooting, you are going to be at a serious disadvantage if you have to shoot on the move, shoot at moving targets, or shoot rapid fire. Heck, most indoor ranges won't even let you draw from concealment. I think that is where there are gun fights that occur at bad breath distance, but people still miss.

I used my airsoft a lot when ammo got scarce and crazy expensive. I got one similar to my carry gun and used it for point shooting. I would bring the gun up from low ready and shoot at the target without really concentrating on the sights. I did it until the gun was a natural extension of my hand and I could put everything in a 2.5" group from about 15 feet. BE SURE TO GET AN AIRSOFT AS CLOSE TO YOUR CARRY GUN AS POSSIBLE!!!
 
Airsoft can, it appears from actual use, be a reasonable, economical substitute
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In my estimation, it is not a substitute. Sure its possible that some minor nuances can likely be uses in some limited circumstances but as I said earlier... its not the way I think it should be done. Its muddy water and anything that you might be able to use as "training" would be considered to be parceled out tid bits... at least to me anyway.
 
FireForged said:
In my estimation,....
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But is there any good reason anyone should care at all about what it is "in your estimation"? You might have an opinion, but you haven't convinced me that your opinion is worth anything.
 
But is there any good reason anyone should care at all about what it is "in your estimation"? You might have an opinion, but you haven't convinced me that your opinion is worth anything.
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I am not here to convince you or anyone else of my "worth" as you put it. I am here to enter into fruitful discussion and that is what I have done for nearly 20 years. If after reading my posts you find no worth in my words.. that's fine by me. good luck to you
 
Most people who train for defensive shooting do not do so to "learn about gunfighting". The objective is to gain some of the skills necessary for self preservation, should they ever be needed.
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when I say "gunfighting", I say that within the context of lawful self defense with a firearm. I had assumed that it would go without saying. I certainly am not talking about something villainous.


I do not understand what you are trying to say
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I was saying that I would not use the bits a pieces of airsoft that may be applicable as a substitute to more competent training

How do you think it should be done?
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I think FoF should be done within a proper ( non gaming) context, preferably with simunitions
 
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FireForged said:
...I am here to enter into fruitful discussion...
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I've found discussion to be fruitful only when participants bring more to the table than empty opinions snatched out of the air and unsupported by relevant knowledge, experience or evidence.
 
I have not seen anyone note a gaming context in this thread. Airsoft gaming is completely separate.

Simunitions are much more rare. If you have them great, most don't. Are you arguing nothing is better than something? If so, why?
 
Sims are expensive and limited as to distribution. Also can one cite any evidence that well thought out air soft FOF is ineffective? Since the professional discussions are quite positive about their usage, it behooves a doubter to give some credentials and experience to back up a claim. Having been through exercises with all of them, I cannot tell the difference between each in a well planned and supervised exercise.
 
FireForged said:
I think FoF should be done within a proper ( non gaming) context, preferably with simunitions
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And what exactly does Simunitions bring that Airsoft does not, other than the use of real firearms? There are some very high quality Airsoft guns that are gas blowback and have decent weight. Some of the Airsoft guns I have are surprisingly accurate (within their limited distance). You don't get the little paint splotch, but if the training is serious, you won't have people say they didn't get hit when they did get hit.

Simuitions are far more expensive than Airsoft and finding FoF training that uses them is much harder than getting some shooting buddies to work on tactics. While I believe that good training is worth investing in, does that mean that people who can't afford those expensive classes should just do without?

As for reality, I believe that Airsoft can be even more realistic than even shooting live ammo as it can be safely done in just about any environment (private property where no one is going to call the police and say active shooter). How many of us actually have access to police style simulations (Hogan's Alley) type training? Besides, those targets don't shoot back. Who want's to repaint a building after shooting it up with simuintions?

As for the whole "Not Realistic" argument, training will NEVER be fully realistic since you know you are NOT GOING TO GET SHOT! Airsoft is cheap and convenient, which allows you to train more often. Still feel Airsoft is useless?
 
And what exactly does Simunitions bring that Airsoft does not
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It would be incredibly unusual for sims to be commercially used in anything other than professional tactical training. Airsoft on the other hand is generally associated with the sport of airsoft and those things relating to that universe. Can it(airsoft) be used in other arenas such as self defense training? sure.. but what instruction the OP is actually considering or what outfit is offering it has not been stated.

Still feel Airsoft is useless?
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I did not use the term useless. I did express some reservations
 
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So I want to take some actual force on force training for concealed carry. It really appeals to me as a martial artist. The thing is I know that these courses can be expensive. And I have noticed that there is one in my area that doesn’t seem crazy expensive, but they use airsoft. How does everyone here feel about using airsoft guns as a force on force trainer? I assume the guns would be gas blowback and realistic. Do you think my reservations are unfounded or do you think one should be very hesitant of the use of these?

I really don’t know what I would be looking for in terms of training and what kind of schools to look at. I know how to look for a good martial arts gym and I assume that there is some translation for places that teach self-defense shooting. But I still would like some assistance.
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As I stated, Airsoft is less expensive than simunitions and can be done almost anywhere. The original poster's concern was whether Airsoft was realistic enough to be worth it. Like I said, ask to observe a class and if they take the training seriously, it can't hurt.
 
The issue isn't the tool itself.

The issue is whether the people using the tool for training know what they're doing.

Or whether they don't.

There are a lot of very well-qualified, excellent trainers doing FOF exercises with their classes. These trainers use a wide variety of tools that include Sims, Airsoft, plain dummy guns, laser-equipped dummy guns, etc.

There are also a whole metric ton of instant experts who have no idea what they're doing but think they do. These guys also use a wide variety of tools that include Sims, Airsoft, plain dummy guns, laser-equipped dummy guns, etc.

This whole argument reminds me a lot of a person pointing to something across the room and trying to get their dog to look at it too. The dog just keeps looking at the person's finger, instead of what the finger is pointing toward.

pax
 
Putting shots on target should be a small part of FoF training. A lot of the skills could be accomplished with a blue gun that doesn’t fire anything. When do you draw? How do you cover an aggressor? When do you shoot or not shoot? Weapon retention. To focus on the equipment too much seems to discard the valuable lessons outside of putting shots on target. As noted above a major component of these should be shoot / no shoot decision making. Simunition, airsoft, paintball, or a declared “bang” should not matter to a good portion of the training
 
Airsoft fires a non-lethal plastic BB. But it fires it with enough velocity to have a decent ballistic profile over short distances and leave a tell-tale bruise if you're not wearing padding.

When my oldest son was a teenager he and some of his friends would do some war games in the backyard. It wasn't organized enough or serious enough to be called "training" although some lessons were clearly learned.

The rules we formulated had everyone wear eye protection with just a t-shirt and shorts. All shots were to be directed to center-of-mass. When you got hit you were expected to remove yourself from the game. But, to keep everyone honest, after the game was over, everyone took off their shirt to prove they had not cheated.

I liked those games because Airsoft delivered one thing other simulations don't, pain. When you get hit, it hurts. And that changed behavior. Boys who would play Hollywood and charge ahead into someone shooting at them in a laser tag game thought twice about doing that when it meant possibly getting hit with 20 Airsoft BBs.

Based on that limited experience, I can certainly see how Airsoft could have a place in a well-designed training program.
 
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