"airline security", and such

A

alan

New member
Last week I had to take a trip, driving seemed a bore, didn't need a vehicle at journeys end anyhow, so I choose to fly. During the checkin proceedure, when asked for "ID", instead of showing my drivers license, I offered my carry permit, which is "government issued", and has a photo.

The airline agent, a lady in this case, looked puzzeled, she didn't realize what I was showing her, though my photo was right in front of her eyes, as was I. I told her what I was showing her, and pointed out that it was "government issued". She asked about a drivers license, and I said that I did not have one, but again pointed out that I was offering a "government issued document, complete with a passport type photo".

Eventually, I got on the plane, after a ticketing screw-up had been resolved. Of course, while the "photo ID" I choose to show created "a problem", the fact that the airline had oversold, by six, the number of seats on the flight elicited not a single word from the airline people, I guess that that is simply the way things are done.

At the risk of being "politically incorrect", the entire thing sounds more and more like the old practice of "double selling a slave" something that gentlemen just didn't do. Seems like times have changed.

Of course, P.O. Ackley had something to say on the subject of "change", offering "that while change indicated movement, it was not necessirally movement in the direction of improvement". I do believe that Mr. Ackley had a point.
 
While the idea of showing an ID for internal travel is ludicrous, the notion of selling more seats than the flight has is not, nor is it very new. In the early days of airline travel the airlines were losing passengers to delays and high costs. An economist named Julian Simon came up with the plan of deliberately overbooking flights to allow for the inevitable no-shows and still have full seats, and offering free tickets and upgrades to those folks who would volunteer to be bumped. You never have to get off a flight you have a valid ticket for. I've acquired several free roundtrip flights and a few upgrades to first class by volunteering to be bumped. I've also seen overbooked flights turn into an auction of sorts as ticket agents offer more and more tickets to get someone to bump. It's a good plan, and makes flying less expensive for you, really.

IDs, however, are unconstitutional and immoral.

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"...the probability of the people in power being individuals who would dislike the possession and exercise of power is on a level with the probability that an extremely tender-hearted person would get the job of whipping-master in a slave plantation."
Prof. Frank H. Knight
 
I usually have to flash an ID card each time I fly - but yesterday (still today for me) I had to fly down via a little puddle jumper to southern Utah and back for an important meeting... I was not asked for ID. I guess Turbo Prop aircraft are not as important as Jets.

The question of the Speed Safe knives through airports: I had no problem - Clipped to the pants pocket - then into the little bucket - It got a glance and was passed back to me untouched. SLC airport security is rather lax.

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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
 
I've been interested in this ID-to-fly requirement ever since I read Suprynowicz's column about his problem at the airport magnetometer.

Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the law/FAA directive or whatever it is that requires airlines to demand ID? I've turned over every link at the FAA website, and can't find reference to it. Thanks.

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“The whole of the Bill (of Rights) is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals. ... It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of.” -Alexander Addison, 1789
 
Ipecac: No, you never HAVE to be bounced, you merely have to show up over an hour before the flight is due to board in order to make sure you get your boarding pass before more people have shown than will fit on the plane.

Personally, the tickets I buy are non-refundable; If I don't show, they keep the money, so exactly how do they lose money if the seat is left empty? Answer: They don't. Over booking isn't actually necessary, it's just profitable.

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Sic semper tyranus!
 
I hate airports, they're stupidity magnents. You get to deal with the min-wage morons mentioned in a previous thread, all the other morons that can't count to two, are spatially challenged, and are sheparded by organizations that don't follow their own rules. I love air travel so much that I've changed jobs twice so I wouldn't have to travel. I fly out of Raygun National or Washington Dulles, and have had to turn on everything from my computer to my electric razor. I pray for the day when bandwidth is ubiquitous and the only reason to go to an airport is because you really want to. FM.
M2
 
Re comment from Ipecac, to the effect that "overbooking" was dreamed up by an economist, Iam less than surprised at this bit of information. Likely it was a PHD economist too.

As for the airlines "loosing money" on no shows, years ago perhaps, but what with "non refundable tickets", and fees hither, thither and yon, you can't be serious.
 
Brett, I'm ashamed of you. You of all people should know of Julian Simon. Sigh.

Overbooking makes flying cheaper for you and I because the airlines were losing passengers to other forms of transit which could guarantee departure times, no matter the weather. Therefore, many people were not using air travel, thus forcing the airlines to raise their rates. By being able to more consistently fill their planes, airlines were able to drop their rates. Overbooking is a good thing for passengers.

I guess I don't travel by as tight a schedule as you all; I almost always have to practically fight to get bumped so I can get free tickets and upgrades. If your travel is so restricted by time, then yes, you better show up early. If I can arrive at my destination as little as a few hours later than scheduled, after having flown first class instead of coach, with a free round trip ticket in my pocket, I call it a victory.

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"...the probability of the people in power being individuals who would dislike the possession and exercise of power is on a level with the probability that an extremely tender-hearted person would get the job of whipping-master in a slave plantation."
Prof. Frank H. Knight
 
Hi, sbryce's wife here, my first post on this forum. As a new CCW holder, I'm curious about the idea of showing a CCW as photo ID. (Mind you, I don't even have a carry gun yet. Need cash.) Would showing the CCW as photo ID be in violation of anything? It's obviously not brandishing a firearm . . . Is it telling someone that I *have* a firearm? and is that any sort of legal problem?

If it's not a legal problem, then (snicker, snicker) I like the idea of rattling the cages just a bit! Have to be sure to show up a bit early to compensate for the probable delay . . . just thinking this through. ;)

I never really thought about the possible ramifications of airlines requiring id to travel. Thanks for mentioning it. Now it sounds to me like (possibly) a voluntary beginning to internal passports. Internal passports always struck fear in my heart when I heard about the U.S.S.R. requiring them. To me it seemed to be the prime example of their terrible regime.

So, should we use CCW's as ID to rattle some cages? or am I overlooking something important?
 
AS far as I am aware the rule is that you only need to show a government issued, photo ID. (I'll ask my wife for clarification tomorrow - she works for one of the largest airlines in the US). And no, I don't see how it is announcing that you actually have a gun, just that you are licensed to carry one. Just like you don't have your car in your possession when you present a drivers license.

As for overbooking, it is (and has been) a practice for quite some time. It is to ensure a full aircraft. The airlines "know" that of the passengers that make reservations, some make them close enough to the flight that they don't have to pay for them until they get to the airport, some of those don't show up, so they do the CYA thing of selling more seats than are actually on the aircraft.

The only company that I know of that actually gives away your seat to a "standby" passenger is Southwest. And believe me, I would know. As a spouse of an employee, I get to fly on what is known as "space available" That means that if there is an open seat on the plane, after all the paying customers, including paying standby's and any other "SA's" with more seniority than my wife are on the plane, I can go on board. Then Joe Business man shows up from the Red Carpet lounge 5 minutes after the door was originally scheduled to be closed and the plane pushed back, and they come on and pull me off ... no "premium" for "volunteering" to give up my seat. Oh, and if that was the last plane to my destination, I am SOL, I pay or my own hotel. Needless to say, I never relax until that door is closed and we've backed away from the jetway. :)

But then again, I get to fly 1st class (if it's available) for about $.005/mile (do the math, say Chicago to LA :) ) Not too shabby. So get to know that Flight Attendant really well guys and gals, they just might be single :)


[This message has been edited by TR (edited October 23, 1999).]
 
I mentioned this in an earlier post, but feel it is apropos here.

I posed that "What kind of ID" question to some gate attendants earlier this year. The guy was polite and at ease and said,"ANY kind of state or federal ID, including passports amd military IDs are fine." The female attendant looked at me all the time with a "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION US?" look. I thanked the guy individually and went on my way.

BTW, I ALWAYS make them ask for ID, and then fumble for it. I don't want to give anybody the impression that they can train the public to show ID without being asked, no matter how obvious the situation. Come to think of it, next time I'll play the senile Senior Citizen and ask "What kind?" and fumble some more. Small steps, small steps.

A tad off topic, as usual. A relative of mine ("X") is a gate attendant. A woman comes up to him to validate their tickets and says her Old Man will be along in a few minutes. He IDs her and she sits down. About 15 minutes later the OM shows up, is ID'd and man and wife board the plane. BANG! An FAA inspector drags "X" into the manager's office, busting him for "failure to check the woman's ID".

"X" explains the situation at length and in detail to the manager, as he is facing a three-day suspension with no pay plus a black mark on his record. FAA is adamant he didn't see the woman's ID checked. Finally, it comes out that FAA guy came on duty AFTER the woman was ID'd.

Instead of checking with "X", he went on a power trip. After "X" was cleared, FAA has the chutzpah to come over and try to shake "X"'s hand, claiming "I was just doing my job". "X", who is mild-mannered to a fault, told him he wasn't doing it well and to
P!$$Off.

It's really scary to have your career in the hands of people like this.

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If you can't fight City Hall, at least defecate on the steps.
 
Raymond. No, she knows where she stands with me... In fact, she'd be proud I was attempting to help out all the other unfortunates fly for "free" :)

Oatka, yes, those are indeed the types of ID (wife called.) and believe me, those people - er I mean the women at the gates are ususally more unpleasant than the men. You should hear the stories my wife tells! :)

As for fumbling with the id, I like it. WHen I travel on business, I try to do that also ... I can't when I'm flying SA ... I'm supposed to know better :(

And thanks to Alan, I am going to look for an alternate ID to present. Anything to monkey wrench the DRL thing. Don't want them to get the idea that everyone has a DRL and they can use a uniform type of ID.
 
Idea Light On:

Start showing your CCW permit for all manner of ID requirement, including airlines. It gets people thinking. Each will do the knee jerk, "Do you have a Driver's License". Just smile and say, "Sorry, no I don't".

In this manner, if these "clerks" see 1,000 people per year flash a CCW, they may begin to question whether guns are only owned by "BackWoods Bubba" and the Branch Davidians.
Rich
 
Rich:
Sounds like an interesting idea, and not only gun ownership is involved, but the fact that quite ordinary, reasonable looking and acting citizens are authorized to carry a concealed weapon, yet they obviously refrain from casually, or otherwise, shooting up their surroudings.
 
Yeah, this had occured to me also ... makes me want to go get a CCW permit, just for this purpose :)
 
Is it picture ID that they require?

AZ CCL has no picture...

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John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
 
Illinoisans can do the same with FOID cards except that most places refuse to take them. The DMV wouldn't let me use mine as ID when I got my driver's license at 16, despite the fact that it had all relevant info, includes a photo, and is issued by the state. :(

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Don

"Its not criminals that go into schools and shoot children"
--Ann Pearston, British Gun Control apologist and moron
 
Gwinny, believe me, I feel your pain. I had my license suspended for 3 months, and all I had was my FOID. No one would accept it as a valid form of ID. I consistently tried to point out that it was a government issued ID, but to no avail. Finally, I succumbed and got a state ID. Turned out to be a blessing in disguise though. The morons at the DMV screwed up and took 5 years off my birthday. It was nice being 18 and having an official state ID that said I was 23 ;)
 
Johnaz2:

Re your querrie, I inquired of US Air re this photo i.d. routine, and was told the following: as of june or july, 1996, FAA regulations stipulated that "a government issued photo i.d. be presented". Since carry permits are issued by state government, if they carry a picture, that should do it, though no doubt, some idiots "political sensibilities" might be "offended". My response was as follows:, politely, but firmly, "you asked for Identification, I presented same, and no, I don't have a drivers license". My permit was accepted.

As for the gentleman from Illinois, I would think that your FOID card, being issued by a government body, the state, would suffice. As to people "not accepting it", I can't say, but did you press the matter, or simply take the word of some "clerk"??
 
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