Air Marshals, what were they supposed to do?
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Mannlicher
New member
Some feel that the Darwin Award winner did not deserve to die. Well, deserve or not, he did. Actions always have consequences. Bi Polar indeed. I have always though that was just another manufactured 'mental illness'.
Putting aside this particular episode,
let's be wary of saying we're so very proud of the air marshalls.
This is a program that, from what I've read, has been beset by problems, with experienced tactical people leaving it in disgust because of lowered standards and recruitment issues.
I always got the impression that people who know are disgusted with it because they've allowed people to graduate from the program even despite not meeting standards that should be met, and that the program itself was shambling along on wobbly legs.
And still no word about how many marshalls there actually are; the best info we get still seems to indicate that they are present on SINGLE-DIGIT PERCENTAGES of flights, and if I recally correctly, they are simply not placed on domestic-to-domestic flights, or something like that.
-azurefly
let's be wary of saying we're so very proud of the air marshalls.
This is a program that, from what I've read, has been beset by problems, with experienced tactical people leaving it in disgust because of lowered standards and recruitment issues.
I always got the impression that people who know are disgusted with it because they've allowed people to graduate from the program even despite not meeting standards that should be met, and that the program itself was shambling along on wobbly legs.
And still no word about how many marshalls there actually are; the best info we get still seems to indicate that they are present on SINGLE-DIGIT PERCENTAGES of flights, and if I recally correctly, they are simply not placed on domestic-to-domestic flights, or something like that.
-azurefly
jeff_troop
New member
what garbage. they did exactly what they were supposed to do. if not now, when should we be proud?
Ultima-Ratio,
Just curious, what would you have done?
Given what information that we have, I think that the Air Marshalls did correct.
If you say, "Well, his wife was yelling that he was bipolar". What if the Air Marshall hadn't fired, and it was a terrorist plot, the women being the distracter and the "terrorist" was able to detonate?
Not to be mean or rude but I figure that you and others would be the first to demonize the Air Marshalls, but then again, the same people are demonizing them now. Double standards? A secret wish that another terrorist plot goes through and more Americans die?
I don't know, I won't spectulate, and I won't go out and spread it as the truth, it's just an opinion.
As for bi-polar being "manufactured" or any other mental illness, I say that it's not, there are people that have mental problems and most, 99% I would guess, stay on their meds and are as "normal" as yourself and most of the members here. The brain is still one of the things that doctors and scientist still really don't have a clue about. If they did then everyone would/could be "cured" (but most likely would just become a mass zombie civilization IMHO).
As for the use of terms, victim, etc.., I would venture to say that everyone involved is a victim in some way. This was something that could have been avoided, by the husband first by taking his meds, the wife second who knew that he hadn't (and either called his doctor or put her foot down).
The Air/Sky Marshal that had to take the shot that killed this person will have to live with this fact, but from what I've read and from what I sat here in my living room and watched live on September 11, 2001, it was something that couldn't be second guessed.
Wayne
Just curious, what would you have done?
Given what information that we have, I think that the Air Marshalls did correct.
If you say, "Well, his wife was yelling that he was bipolar". What if the Air Marshall hadn't fired, and it was a terrorist plot, the women being the distracter and the "terrorist" was able to detonate?
Not to be mean or rude but I figure that you and others would be the first to demonize the Air Marshalls, but then again, the same people are demonizing them now. Double standards? A secret wish that another terrorist plot goes through and more Americans die?
I don't know, I won't spectulate, and I won't go out and spread it as the truth, it's just an opinion.
As for bi-polar being "manufactured" or any other mental illness, I say that it's not, there are people that have mental problems and most, 99% I would guess, stay on their meds and are as "normal" as yourself and most of the members here. The brain is still one of the things that doctors and scientist still really don't have a clue about. If they did then everyone would/could be "cured" (but most likely would just become a mass zombie civilization IMHO).
As for the use of terms, victim, etc.., I would venture to say that everyone involved is a victim in some way. This was something that could have been avoided, by the husband first by taking his meds, the wife second who knew that he hadn't (and either called his doctor or put her foot down).
The Air/Sky Marshal that had to take the shot that killed this person will have to live with this fact, but from what I've read and from what I sat here in my living room and watched live on September 11, 2001, it was something that couldn't be second guessed.
Wayne
When they kill someone who is actually a danger? I dunno, that's just me...
There seems no doubt they did what they're supposed to do. Even so, this was clearly a unintentional consequence. I'm sure the Marshall himself would probably sleep a bit easier if the guy really did have a bomb on his person, knowing for certain that he did not only what he was trained to do, but what was right.
jeff_troop
New member
i say he did do what was right.
you can never be certain until it is to late. so you do your job as directed.
you can never be certain until it is to late. so you do your job as directed.
shecky,
What the news @$$es have done is to hunt around until they found a guy on the flight, seated 24 rows behind the mentally ill fellow, who says he did NOT hear the guy say anything about a bomb and broadcast his story. Then they find a "woman on the street and another News @$$" who thinks the nasty evil skymarshalls should have been able to just "shoot to wound him or shoot the him in the leg or something that won't really hurt the poor man" and they broadcast that. I'm waiting for the NYT to print a story headlined" Evil SkyMarshalls murder hispanic man while crowd watches in airport".
That's what the News@$$es have done.
Sam
What the news @$$es have done is to hunt around until they found a guy on the flight, seated 24 rows behind the mentally ill fellow, who says he did NOT hear the guy say anything about a bomb and broadcast his story. Then they find a "woman on the street and another News @$$" who thinks the nasty evil skymarshalls should have been able to just "shoot to wound him or shoot the him in the leg or something that won't really hurt the poor man" and they broadcast that. I'm waiting for the NYT to print a story headlined" Evil SkyMarshalls murder hispanic man while crowd watches in airport".
That's what the News@$$es have done.
Sam
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
There's some idiot interviewed on the Time site who claimed it was unnecessary but he was on alert so that if a bad thing he could break the neck of the BGs.
Here's the URL - http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1138965,00.html
McAlhany says he tried to see what was happening just in case he needed to take evasive action. "I wanted to make sure if anything was coming toward me and they were killing passengers I would have a chance to break somebody's neck," he says. "I was looking through the seats because I wanted to see what was coming.
:barf: :barf:
Here's the URL - http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1138965,00.html
McAlhany says he tried to see what was happening just in case he needed to take evasive action. "I wanted to make sure if anything was coming toward me and they were killing passengers I would have a chance to break somebody's neck," he says. "I was looking through the seats because I wanted to see what was coming.
:barf: :barf:
And is any of this reporting demonstrably false? Why is reporting suddenly wrong?
I've heard several seemingly conflicting reports of the incident. I'm sure that investigators are sifting through the same information. Are they "@$$es" too for seeking out this info? These things are always ironed out, reports are sometimes mistaken, incomplete, or out of context. This is nothing new. Remember all those evil people killing innocents in NOLA and shooting at rescuers?
stephen426
New member
I still feel that this guy a a victim, but a victim of his mental illness rather than what happened to him. Its not his fault he was born with the illness. That is why I feel that most of the people on this forum have some sympathy for him and his family. Did he deserve to die for his actions? Given the circumstances, yes.
As for shooting to wound rather than shooting to kill, an injured terrorist might still be able to detonate the bomb. I had an opportunity to see an FBI HRT demonstration last weekend and they were explaining about shooting to stop a perpetrator in his tracks. The instructor said that the only reliable "instant" stop is a shot to the medulla oblongata part of the brain which is about a 2 inch tall section right behind your eyes. Basically they are trained to shoot between the eyes. This supposedly drops the bad guy like a sack of potatoes and does not even give them time to pull the trigger or detonate a bomb.
By the way, for all those who knock Glocks, that is now the standard issue weapon for all FBI agents. The FBI SWAT guys usually carry 1911's in .45 acp though. I guess that is saying a lot for the venerable 1911 and the .45 acp if FBI SWAT uses it.
As for shooting to wound rather than shooting to kill, an injured terrorist might still be able to detonate the bomb. I had an opportunity to see an FBI HRT demonstration last weekend and they were explaining about shooting to stop a perpetrator in his tracks. The instructor said that the only reliable "instant" stop is a shot to the medulla oblongata part of the brain which is about a 2 inch tall section right behind your eyes. Basically they are trained to shoot between the eyes. This supposedly drops the bad guy like a sack of potatoes and does not even give them time to pull the trigger or detonate a bomb.
By the way, for all those who knock Glocks, that is now the standard issue weapon for all FBI agents. The FBI SWAT guys usually carry 1911's in .45 acp though. I guess that is saying a lot for the venerable 1911 and the .45 acp if FBI SWAT uses it.
FirstFreedom
Moderator
I'm going to be the devil's advocate, though admittedly I haven't heard....
all the reports, so I may be off base here. But at first glance, I can't believe you all are just blindly swallowing the leo's story, hook line and sinker.
So we're supposed to believe this guy:
1. said he had a bomb, and
2. reached into a bag?
Uh-huh, just like the UK cops said Mr. DeMenezes:
1. had on a thick coat
2. was acting suspiciously
3. ran from them
which all turned out to be complete lies, made up to cover their butts. You guys actually trust a gummint agent to tell the truth? He may or may not have, but who knows.....
The shoot to wound thing is ludicrous - you don't do that - either he is a threat or isn't. But people in the gov't, including LEOs, LIE all the time. Not all of them, but many of them. They're very good at it, having had lots of practice.
all the reports, so I may be off base here. But at first glance, I can't believe you all are just blindly swallowing the leo's story, hook line and sinker.
So we're supposed to believe this guy:
1. said he had a bomb, and
2. reached into a bag?
Uh-huh, just like the UK cops said Mr. DeMenezes:
1. had on a thick coat
2. was acting suspiciously
3. ran from them
which all turned out to be complete lies, made up to cover their butts. You guys actually trust a gummint agent to tell the truth? He may or may not have, but who knows.....
The shoot to wound thing is ludicrous - you don't do that - either he is a threat or isn't. But people in the gov't, including LEOs, LIE all the time. Not all of them, but many of them. They're very good at it, having had lots of practice.
spacemanspiff
New member
yeah, they were definitely traumatized by the air marshalls guns, not by the deranged person not complying with orders from authorities who forced them to use deadly force!
jeff_troop
New member
are we supposed tp believe they picked this guy out of a crowd and shot him for no reason?
azredhawk44
Moderator
I don't really see why a jack-booted storm team needs to board a plane with 200 people sitting in close proximity with one another...
They didn't have any leads that anyone else was a BG.
They pointed loaded weapons at a lot of people who didn't have anything to do with the crazy guy.
They didn't have any leads that anyone else was a BG.
They pointed loaded weapons at a lot of people who didn't have anything to do with the crazy guy.
FirstFreedom
Moderator
Of course you'd be WISE to believe that, since that's precisely what happened to Mr. DeMenezes in this post-9/11 trigger happy hysteria. LEOs make mistakes all the time, such as serving warrants at the wrong house with no-knocks before dawn, then shooting the occupants who don't know what the hell is going on, and come to investigate. I certainly wouldn't put it past some cops to shoot for 'contempt of cop', then try to cover it up with a lie. I'm just looking for evidence here, and an LEOs word is not good evidence IMO. It is SOME evidence, but not GOOD evidence.
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