Aiming vs Pointing.....

Okay here's something a little different to think about:
Being an old gray beard, my eyes are no longer happy with traditional open sights, so these days my rifles and handguns are wearing optical sights. This isn't the case with shotguns, I can see the target or I can see the beads, but I can't see them at the same time. This is no problem since I learned shotgunning as a pointer and it's served me well. I guess it's too late for me to learn to aim a shotgun; but, why would I want to?

With respect to dyl's:
Again, what parts are the same between aiming and pointing?
- Same cheek weld?
- Same shouldering of shotgun?
- Therefore the same "sight picture" although the focus is not on the sights in pointing?
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Dyl, you're making some assumptions because I don't think you understand the versatility of pointing. With training, you can accurately point a shotgun without having it mounted. This might be useful in a HD situation. How do you think the exhibition shooters pull off all those crazy shots? It's not magic, it's with dismounted pointing.

There are subtle aspects of pointing that many shooters overlook. How many of you use a "pointer grip" with your left hand?
 
To me everything about putting the gun to shoulder is the same. The only difference in question, as best I can tell, is whether you take your eyes off the target and align the sighting plane, or not.
 
Again, what parts are the same between aiming and pointing?
- Same cheek weld?
- Same shouldering of shotgun?
- Therefore the same "sight picture" although the focus is not on the sights in pointing?
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Cheek weld? No, not the same - folks who aim really want to "scrunch" themselves down on the stock like they do on an M4 - someone who points doesn't even THINK of cheek weld or understand what that is.

Same shouldering? Again, no see above. Plus when aiming, you are consciously trying to plant that stock for a stationary shot

Look up "Move, Mount, Shoot" and the "Churchill" method for a better explanation. The English really started and mastered the pointing aspect. A "Gun" from 100 years ago, shooting at birds, would not know what cheek weld was, but knew about a fluid fit of the stock. Those using the gun as a rifle want short LOP, again "scrunched" up on the stock, when they might really need something an inch or two longer for a fluid motion mounting and firing of the gun.

Therefore, it is NOT the same sight picture

And when it comes to SxS guns, it isn't even in the same arena
 
3) When you call for the bird, you start your swing...
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Not if you want to shoot good scores. Why look in the window if you're going to start your move when you make your call? For newer shooters, you should start your move when you see the target, not before. Experienced shooters may let the target fly a little before they start to move.

Some shooters are spoiled by perfect the pulls given by voice activated systems and develop/reinforce bad habits. Remember, the rules NSSA allow the puller to have up to a 1-second delay (more in Int'l Skeet), and jumping the target (moving too soon) is one way of guaranteeing a miss.
 
3) When you call for the bird, you start your swing...

Not if you want to shoot good scores. Why look in the window if you're going to start your move when you make your call? For newer shooters, you should start your move when you see the target, not before. Experienced shooters may let the target fly a little before they start to move.
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Thats what I meant. It is very hard to write a post because everything is scrutinized. I try to be as specific as possible, but to no avail! Something is always shy of an absolutely complete explaination.

In American skeet, the call and the presentation of the bird go hand in hand (maybe not exactly at the same time, but close). I did not explain myself thorough enough when i said start your swing when you call for the bird. I should have said start your swing when you see the target.

Im not giving anyone a hard time, but when I write my posts, it takes a while because Im always adding or deleting to make sure I am completely understood, or to make sure I am thorough enough. I never seem to get it right on the head.
 
l98ster, I'm happy to see that we're on the same page on this one. Neither of us wants the newbies getting frustrated because they're jumping their targets.
 
I shoot 4 different shotgun games as well as hunting with a shotgun. The ONLY time I aim is with a slug.

I used to aim before I knew how to shoot a shotgun and I used to miss, ALOT. One day I about 30 years ago I was shooting doves and everything I had been told clicked and the those little feathered rockets began falling from the sky on a regular basis. Once I leaned to focus intently on the target and allow my onboard ballistic computer to do its thing, my hit ratio improved exponentially.

Any of you tactical shooters that think thats stuff is only for breaking clays and killing rabbits, I encourage you to watch some 3 gun video on you tube. You will see an obvious difference in aiming and pointing. The slower (still pretty darned fast) deliberate shots are with slugs. That is aimed fire. When they are running their shotguns full tilt they are not aiming. Often time Im shooting the second or third popper before the first one is hitting the ground. My shotgun shoots where Im looking, so as soon as Ive pulled the trigger my eyes have moved to the next target. As soon as my gun catches up I pull the trigger. Im not looking at the bead on the end of my barrel, Im looking at what I want to hit. The targets are different but the method is the same.
 
still confused but that's okay

First, I appreciate the discussion from you all. Even if I don't completely see "the light" here, every little bit more helps.

Zippy, I'm actually trying to avoid making assumptions and that's why I asked about the nitty gritty of how does one actually go about pointing a shotgun. What does it look like, what doesn't it look like. This is pointing with a shotgun vs. aiming with a shotgun mind you.

There seems to be a few different viewpoints of how "pointing" is actually executed. For right now, I was mostly thinking about actions of the upper body.
Here's the different versions I've heard in the responses.

A) Shouldering, cheek weld / alignment the same as aiming. Difference: eyes focus on target

B) Shouldering, cheek weld/alignment all different compared to aiming. How? Cheek weld not quite important. Shouldering in a different way that allows for more motion somehow (less pressure?). Sight picture different than aiming with shotgun.

Comments on A) - I understand this explanation more. Everything I've learned about firearms strives for consistency. For example, if my shotgun is set up to only show the bead when in alignment, I can practice this way even if my focus is on the target. If cheek weld stays the same then this is how I understand how a shotgun "shoots where I look". Because if my upper body moves as an aligned unit then I can have some consistency.

Comments on B) very perplexing If I shoulder the shotgun with no requirements as to it's position or height on my shoulder, and there are no requirements to make about alignment, how do I as a beginner have a basis to work from? How does one know what direction he missed in? What keeps me from seeing 2 inches of vent rib on one shot or 6 on the next shot if cheek weld is not important?

Still confused, but you have tried. Valiant effort and I appreciate this thread.


I suspect that I might receive several different answers as to the "right" way to point - just as there are several methods of point shooting a handgun with books written about their inventors.
 
Dyl, I'm going to take a guess... are you originally trained as a rifleman? It's almost easier to introduce someone to shotgunning who's not shot before than it is to teach a rifleman. I was one who started with a rifle, and I had to do some unlearning before I got comfortable with a shotgun. It may sound like hearsay, but a lot of what we practice with a rifle goes out the window with a shotgun.

First some clarification: I consider a shotgun as something that shoots shot at a moving target. And, pointing works best in the situation. Some shoot slugs with their shotguns and they aim. But, if you're shooting slugs, it's not longer really a shotgun (a shotgun without shot becomes a musket) and rifle rules apply.

When I'm shotgunning, rifle basics like steady grip (including cheek weld), breath control, sight alignment and trigger control go out the window. What I'm looking for is a consistent mount, seeing the target, moving smoothly, seeing the correct lead, dropping the hammer and following through.

Think of it this way: With a rifle the object is to have the sights perfectly aligned at the moment the hammer falls -- with a shotgun the object is to have it hit where you are looking. Some of the required skills are mutually exclusive. With shotguns, we often hear the recommendation, head on the stock, eye on the rock -- really, it's almost that simple.

There is a lot of talk about proper stock fit and what bead alignment you should use, but these are really just aspects of being consistent. The main advantage of having a properly fit stock is that it reduces kick -- if you're flinching it's hard to be consistent.

In a recent tread about bead alignment, I suggested that a Skeet shooter, "Try this: tuck your gun up into your arm pit and start shooting high birds at Station-1. Looking above the end of the barrel, pretty soon you'll learn how much to float the target and you'll be smoking it every time." Dyl, if you give something like this a try, pretty soon you'll grasp the concept of pointing a shotgun. Check out LSnSC's comments (above), too.
 
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Fit

Dyl: One important element about shotguns that I do not see mentioned in your last post is "fit" (referred to by my friend Zippy). Mounting a shotgun, knowing how to do it, is all well and good but if the shotgun does not fit me, it will not shoot where I look....unless I make adjustments to my mount that another shooter may not need to make.
That being said....most shooters do not take themselves to a shotgun fitter and go through the process. They simply make their guns work. I suspect that everyone has, therefore, a slightly different way of mounting a shotgun so that it will shoot where it is pointed.
Take two shooters - one tall and long armed, the other much shorter and more compact. They both own off the shelf 870s. The gun will probably have too short a stock for one of them and too long a stock for the other. Mounted the same way, the gun will shoot high for one and low for the other. Both learn to compensate for this in short order by changing the way that they mount the gun.
Pete
 
Another aspect to consider - when aiming a shotgun like a rifle, you have the gun premounted. With SOME shotgun scenarios you may as well, but not all of them - International Skeet utilizes a low gun as does FITASC which is the International version of sporting clays.

Most bird hunter also use a low gun position while walking up their feathered quarry while deer hunters look for a rest so they can premount and get into position

The Move, Mount, Shoot I mentioned above addresses this. You first move to the target with a low gun, when you get to your insertion point you mount, as it hits your cheek you shoot the target - no scrunched up cheek weld, no checking sights front to back and back to front - it becomes an instinctive set of fluid moves that act as one
 
+1

You first move to the target with a low gun, when you get to your insertion point you mount, as it hits your cheek you shoot the target - no scrunched up cheek weld, no checking sights front to back and back to front - it becomes an instinctive set of fluid moves that act as one
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Wonderful description of an upland shot.
Pete
 
Most bird hunter also use a low gun position while walking up their feathered quarry while deer hunters look for a rest so they can premount and get into position
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You know how some hunters will buy any new gadget that comes along. Perhaps you could market a motorized clays stand on wheels for those want to hunt upland with a premounted gun. :rolleyes:
 
^^^:D^^^...

...and start 2-a-day workouts in the weight room.

Gonna need all the muscle's you can get to carry a pre-mounted shotgun all day long. :eek:
 
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Zippy, the funny things is my very first shot with any firearm was a 410 (not mine). Then I went to air rifle, then a .22, but quickly went to handguns and have progressed much farther with the handguns.

I get the feeling that learning to point is going to make me queezy every now and then :)
 
"how does one actually go about pointing a shotgun"

How do you point at the light switch on the wall without looking down your index finger? (Or at a squirrel in a tree or at a plane flying overhead?) You know, someone asks where something is and you just toss off a quick point with your finger without lining it up. It's usually close.

You just do it. Try it. Throw your hand up and point your finger at something. Then hold your hand still and move your head until you can sight down your finger. Most people will be very close to being dead on it due to a lifetime of practice.

John
 
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