After You Defend Yourself
- Thread starter asmall
- Start date
blackmind: You're under no legal obligation to try to help somebody you see in trouble on the street. You're damned sure not under any obligation to render assistance to a guy who's in the predicament you describe. Won't matter how it looks. My trouble would be explaining how so much of my urine got all over the sorry s.o.b.'s face.
Harley Quinn
Moderator
Zeke you are so bad. LOL Spray um said the cat.
LOL...
Well I still think, if it is a good shooting you should talk. Then ask/tell them I am going to call my attorney.
They are there because you called right?
You must of said something on the phone???
I want an attorney, send one of those ambulance chasing SOB's over to my residence. I just blew away this criminal. LOL..
Sorry, I trust the Police more then I do ambulance chaser's.
I also like 'hoppy' as in Hopalong Cassidy, he said they (policeman) are my friend... He also said never call them cops, especially if you are in a bad shooting LOL...
Harley
LOL...
Well I still think, if it is a good shooting you should talk. Then ask/tell them I am going to call my attorney.
They are there because you called right?
You must of said something on the phone???
I want an attorney, send one of those ambulance chasing SOB's over to my residence. I just blew away this criminal. LOL..
Sorry, I trust the Police more then I do ambulance chaser's.
I also like 'hoppy' as in Hopalong Cassidy, he said they (policeman) are my friend... He also said never call them cops, especially if you are in a bad shooting LOL...
Harley
As I have read of it, one of the reasons why experts tell us to say to the police that we plan to cooperate cheerfully but only when we have an attorney present is because we will recall events in a flawed manner. I remember them talking about how we will have suffered tunnel vision and auditory exclusion during and after the stressful situation. And if you tell the cops, "I fired three shots," because of your bewilderment, but it is found that you fired five, you will give an anti-gun, anti-self-defense DA fuel for your funeral pyre! Imagine a prosecutor going into court with your statement to the police that you fired three shots, but then presenting -- to a jury, mind you -- FIVE cartridge casings, and a firearms expert who will attest that they all came from your gun, the gun with which you shot the attacker to death. Suddenly it looks like you a) went overboard, and b) then lied to minimize how much fire you engaged in.
There are other reasons, I'm sure, for keeping quiet until you speak with a lawyer who is experienced in defending people who have fired in self defense. I sure as hell would not want to be cavalier about picking just any old lawyer. There must be specific people who make themselves worth the money at this kind of thing.
-blackmind
There are other reasons, I'm sure, for keeping quiet until you speak with a lawyer who is experienced in defending people who have fired in self defense. I sure as hell would not want to be cavalier about picking just any old lawyer. There must be specific people who make themselves worth the money at this kind of thing.
-blackmind
On the question of whether requesting a lawyer looks bad:
Obviously I've never been in such a situation, but I think there's a difference between saying "I didn't murder anybody! I need a lawyer!" and saying "Officer, I know you'll need me to describe what happened, and I have no problem cooperating, but I would prefer to have a lawyer present while doing so."
Obviously I've never been in such a situation, but I think there's a difference between saying "I didn't murder anybody! I need a lawyer!" and saying "Officer, I know you'll need me to describe what happened, and I have no problem cooperating, but I would prefer to have a lawyer present while doing so."
Replying to a whole bunch of things;
Zekewolf: Nope, never shot anyone and pray I never do. However, I do have some LEO background and know the cops will go through the house if they take you elsewhere. In my case, I'm divorced and no one would remain behind to "witness" what the cops did. Hence, I'd ask my lawyer to do that especially as he can provide an affidavit to the court of any potential legal screw-ups the cops did (like trying to pry open your safe before obtaining a warrant or copying down entries in your check book).
nug_38: When I said you could tell the cops you think you're about to hurl, I do have first hand knowledge. Most cops will take a few steps back, tell you to take a few slow deep breaths and calm down. Usually they don't want to upset you since (1)uniforms can be expensive to clean (2)they don't want to end up cleaning puke out of a gun/holster (3)the smell of it might get to them too and (4)with today's worry of diseases they'd prefer to avoid exposure to YOUR bodily fluids. Plus, it's not an unusual reaction for many people to get sick afterwards..it's a very HUMAN reaction. But it gives you time to collect your thoughts, recall what you've been taught so you can say calmly, "officer, thank you for your kindness. I do want to cooperate but I am so shaky right now, I think it's smart if I wait for my attorney before answering any questions."
Blackmind, et al: If you shoot someone justifiably, then they were an immediate and grave threat to your life. But if you shoot him and he's bleeding all over the persian rug, screaming, he's not quite a "non-threat" is he? Still concious, you have no idea how much pain he's really in -- OR what he'll do if you get close! There are techniques & tactics that can be used with 2 or more defenders however MOST people don't know how to employ those tactics. If you are alone, he's conscious, toss him a box of gauze bandages or a towel from a safe distance. Someone out cold and pumping blood like a fountain will bleed to death without aid. Again, if you're alone, you take a risk getting close should he wake up.
Note: If he just tried his best to carve me into sushi and I survived, I'm not going to take another chance be getting close to him. A guy squriming around the livingroom with a load of #8 birdshot in his thighs will get a towel or two until paramedics arrive. Legally, I don't think you have an obligation to start first aid or CPR, especially if you think a serious danger remains. Morally and ethically you have to ask yourself if this person will threaten your life and put himself in mortal peril like that, does he value his own life as much as you value yours? (Seems doubtful).
Blackmind is correct that some details escape our notice in the adrenaline rush of the event. I went to one shooting scene where the homeowner seemed calm and collected, described how the BG came in through the garage, he saw the pipe wrench held menacingly and fired twice, recalling clearly his Army training to let out a breath first. Both shots were 10-ring hits and BG was DRT in the hallway. The cop asked the man if he remembered wetting himself at which point he looked down in surprise! He hadn't even realized it while standing in the garage in 40 degree weather!
The point is, you can leave out critical details -- like that you were headed to the bathroom when it all started -- that will later become "loose threads" in your account of the incident.
Zekewolf: Nope, never shot anyone and pray I never do. However, I do have some LEO background and know the cops will go through the house if they take you elsewhere. In my case, I'm divorced and no one would remain behind to "witness" what the cops did. Hence, I'd ask my lawyer to do that especially as he can provide an affidavit to the court of any potential legal screw-ups the cops did (like trying to pry open your safe before obtaining a warrant or copying down entries in your check book).
nug_38: When I said you could tell the cops you think you're about to hurl, I do have first hand knowledge. Most cops will take a few steps back, tell you to take a few slow deep breaths and calm down. Usually they don't want to upset you since (1)uniforms can be expensive to clean (2)they don't want to end up cleaning puke out of a gun/holster (3)the smell of it might get to them too and (4)with today's worry of diseases they'd prefer to avoid exposure to YOUR bodily fluids. Plus, it's not an unusual reaction for many people to get sick afterwards..it's a very HUMAN reaction. But it gives you time to collect your thoughts, recall what you've been taught so you can say calmly, "officer, thank you for your kindness. I do want to cooperate but I am so shaky right now, I think it's smart if I wait for my attorney before answering any questions."
Blackmind, et al: If you shoot someone justifiably, then they were an immediate and grave threat to your life. But if you shoot him and he's bleeding all over the persian rug, screaming, he's not quite a "non-threat" is he? Still concious, you have no idea how much pain he's really in -- OR what he'll do if you get close! There are techniques & tactics that can be used with 2 or more defenders however MOST people don't know how to employ those tactics. If you are alone, he's conscious, toss him a box of gauze bandages or a towel from a safe distance. Someone out cold and pumping blood like a fountain will bleed to death without aid. Again, if you're alone, you take a risk getting close should he wake up.
Note: If he just tried his best to carve me into sushi and I survived, I'm not going to take another chance be getting close to him. A guy squriming around the livingroom with a load of #8 birdshot in his thighs will get a towel or two until paramedics arrive. Legally, I don't think you have an obligation to start first aid or CPR, especially if you think a serious danger remains. Morally and ethically you have to ask yourself if this person will threaten your life and put himself in mortal peril like that, does he value his own life as much as you value yours? (Seems doubtful).
Blackmind is correct that some details escape our notice in the adrenaline rush of the event. I went to one shooting scene where the homeowner seemed calm and collected, described how the BG came in through the garage, he saw the pipe wrench held menacingly and fired twice, recalling clearly his Army training to let out a breath first. Both shots were 10-ring hits and BG was DRT in the hallway. The cop asked the man if he remembered wetting himself at which point he looked down in surprise! He hadn't even realized it while standing in the garage in 40 degree weather!
The point is, you can leave out critical details -- like that you were headed to the bathroom when it all started -- that will later become "loose threads" in your account of the incident.
Any money you guys are contemplating spending on putting a "good defense" attorney on retainer would probably be better spent on psychotherapy. 
I don't believe I'd be treated the same, Bill, in my home state, particularly in my home jurisdiction, as you contemplate being treated in Kalifornia.
I don't expect to ever need a good criminal defense attorney, but if I do, I know who they are and how to reach 'em. The fact is, where I live, if somebody breaks into my house with me at home, and I have to defend myself with lethal force, I don't think I'll need a defense attorney, and I don't think the cops will ransack my house. I'd be surprised if they even confiscated my weapon. If they did confiscate my weapon, I'd most likely get it back the next day. (Probably with a case of free ammo.)
I don't believe I'd be treated the same, Bill, in my home state, particularly in my home jurisdiction, as you contemplate being treated in Kalifornia. I don't expect to ever need a good criminal defense attorney, but if I do, I know who they are and how to reach 'em. The fact is, where I live, if somebody breaks into my house with me at home, and I have to defend myself with lethal force, I don't think I'll need a defense attorney, and I don't think the cops will ransack my house. I'd be surprised if they even confiscated my weapon. If they did confiscate my weapon, I'd most likely get it back the next day. (Probably with a case of free ammo.)
Eghad said:
And here I thought that in Texas "He needed killin'" was still a valid reason for justifiable homicide!
Zekewolf said:
Zeke, why not find one of your city's friendly cops and ask them how they investigate such a case? I think you'll find that the larger the town the more likely it is that they will do a complete investigation.
And here I thought that in Texas "He needed killin'" was still a valid reason for justifiable homicide!
Zekewolf said:
Zeke, why not find one of your city's friendly cops and ask them how they investigate such a case? I think you'll find that the larger the town the more likely it is that they will do a complete investigation.
It basically states any person in good faith who stops to administer medical help to an injured person cannot be sued in civil court by the victim's family in case there are damages or negligence while administering care.
Each state is different, but that is the main point of the good samaritan law
Each state is different, but that is the main point of the good samaritan law
progunner1957
Moderator
He can STILL kill you, even though he is down and wounded
IMHO - NO!!! You do not know 100% for certain that he is not a threat. If you attempt to help him, he could easily bury a concealed knife in your chest or slash your throat ear-to-ear.
If you attempt to administer first aid and he dies, you will be accused of "finishing him off."
If the police ask why you did not attempt to help the thug who tried to kill you, simply say, "HE TRIED TO KILL ME. I WAS IN FEAR FOR MY LIFE. I was afraid he had a knife and would use it to kill me."
When a shot thug is down, stay clear of him!!
IMHO - NO!!! You do not know 100% for certain that he is not a threat. If you attempt to help him, he could easily bury a concealed knife in your chest or slash your throat ear-to-ear.
If you attempt to administer first aid and he dies, you will be accused of "finishing him off."
If the police ask why you did not attempt to help the thug who tried to kill you, simply say, "HE TRIED TO KILL ME. I WAS IN FEAR FOR MY LIFE. I was afraid he had a knife and would use it to kill me."
When a shot thug is down, stay clear of him!!
This is probably not a good plan by any means, but I was wondering what would happen in this situation. You are walking home at night, a BG attacks you/threatens you with a deadly weapon, thus giving you the legal right to defend your self and shoot him. You shoot, he dies, no one else sees it. You could easily go home and leave the BG on the street, and no one would know besides you. Would this be a bad idea? You shot legally, and had every right to defend yourself. There is no need to do anything else is there? Do you have to call 911 and say, "hello, i just shot a guy who tried to kill me."? Whats the deal here?
P.S. I know I've already posted this in another thread, but this thread one seems alot more relavent to my question.
P.S. I know I've already posted this in another thread, but this thread one seems alot more relavent to my question.
C Philip-
How do you know that nobody saw you? How do you know that nobody saw it through a dark window or from a parked car? How do you know there aren't any security cameras? How do you know that nobody saw you entering or leaving the area?
Thinking that you can outsmart the law is a proposition that only works for celebrities standing trial in southern California.
How do you know that nobody saw you? How do you know that nobody saw it through a dark window or from a parked car? How do you know there aren't any security cameras? How do you know that nobody saw you entering or leaving the area?
Thinking that you can outsmart the law is a proposition that only works for celebrities standing trial in southern California.
nimitz97 said:
shorts said:
Essentially true. If you have taken the Red Cross first aid and/or CPR classes, the law provides you immunity from civil suits as long as you followed their guidelines -- as taught to you at the time -- and didn't improvise on your techniques.
If, for example, you perform a traechotomy using a pocket knife and a ball-point pen to keep someone breathing --something not taught in basic 1st aid or CPR -- you could be open to a serious civil suit.