After a fatal shooting

what if the police are involved in a shooting?

It all depends on local policy.

Every place I have ever worked has required you to give a brief statement at the scene. (No, I have never been involved in a shooting). The requirement to give such a statment is pretty common in police policy.

So, what does the officer have to say>

SUPERVISOR’S WARNING—Los Angeles Police Department
(from Officer Involved Shootings by David Hatch) page 118

Officer, I am ordering you to give me a public safety statement. Due to the immediate need to take action, you do not have the right to wait for representation before answering these limited questions:

In what direction did you fire the shots?
If you know of anyone who was injured, what is his or her l location?
If any suspects are still at large, what are their descriptions?
What was their direction of travel?
How long have they been gone?
 What crimes are they wanted for?
Does any evidence need protection? Where is it located?
Are their any witnesses? Where are they located?

Officer, in order to prevent the contamination of your statement, I order you not to discuss this incident with anyone, including other supervisors or staff officers, prior to the arrival of the assigned investigators, with the exception of your legal representatives.

I have put in bold the answers that I think anyone involved in a shooting should tell the police at the scene.
 
Jeff, I would disagree. I would NOT answer the first question (because it's an admission against your interests to say that you fired any shots at all..., see arguments above...), but I would answer the rest. The REST of the questions pertain only to securing the area, and not to "what happened."

Good info, though. These are DEFINITELY some of the questions you'll get asked, and it's important to note that you CAN answer SOME of them.

Get yourself safe, and help the officers get everybody else safe. Just keep quiet about "what happened" until your lawyer arrives.
 
Jeff, I'm glad you made that list. I feel safe answering briefly all but the first question or any variation of it containing a statement that can be boiled down to "I fired shot(s)".
 
Jeff, I would disagree. I would NOT answer the first question (because it's an admission against your interests to say that you fired any shots at all..., see arguments above...), but I would answer the rest. The REST of the questions pertain only to securing the area, and not to "what happened."
Click to expand...

I would disagree with your disagreement. Police need to know that information because the shots you fired may have had unintended consequences. There could very well be somebody down and in need of medical attention from a stray bullet.
 
My chosen lawyer, in such a circumstance, is going to want a bucket of money to come counsel me. If he says something is silly, I'll consider it silly.

Last time I ignored paid-for advice of a (different) lawyer on what seemed (to me) a minor issue, I learned to argue with them all I can afford to, but to then follow their advice exactly.

The hard way.
 
I think I'm seeing a pattern here. Too many variables to give one pat answer other than talking to an Attorney beforehand.

Are you at home? At work? On the street or elsewhere engaged in legal activity? Other Witnesses? Family members you were protecting? Co-workers present? Most of them, if not all of them, will be questioned by the Police.

Your adrenaline level will be sky-high or crashing down, or somewhere in between. You may be in a mild state of shock.

Bears repeating: Talk to an Attorney before the fact.

Know your laws. A Homicide or at least a shooting (ADW) has occurred. Plan on going downtown. Plan on your firearm being confiscated. Plan on your attorney showing up eventually (if you or a family member called). Plan on disbelief that this is really happening to you. Plan on Bail. Plan on a big interruption in your day/week/month.

Some things might be self evident. i.e., Your home w/ kicked in door, miscreant lying there, maybe w/ known record, maybe not.

Other times it might not be self evident. i.e., Coming out of a store w/ family, walking to your car, confrontation w/ group of armed thugs. BG might have had cohorts nearby who'll claim they were on their way home from Church choir practice when you lured their friend over and shot him for no reason, etc.
Neutral witnesses... who knows what they saw or what they'll say?
Any Video Cam's nearby?

It's going to be a confused dynamic with you and some other person (who's been shot) at the center of the storm.

Police are there to gather facts for the DA's office and put BG's in their place when caught doing something bad. They don't know you from Adam. If it's clear you're in the right, they'll probably be rooting for you inside, and while most would privately tell you to wait for your attorney, someone is going to want some answers for their report and will coax and cajole or reassure you into saying something. If the waters are the least bit muddy...

Here's one thing you do know... (How's that line go?) "What you say, CAN, and WILL, be used against you"...

Is that self evident or what? All the above is what our CCW instructor taught us in class, with emphasis on a good Attorney for criminal and civil paperwork that follows use of lethal force.

And finally... Attorney at Law. Like a good handgun, it's better to have one when you don't need one than need one when you don't have one.
 
the aftermath of a shooting incident --

Just remember not to over-think this stuff: Your actions will be evaluated based on the information known to you at the time of the incident. Your perception of threat. Your perception of tactical options. Your decisions will be compared to those of a "reasonable man" under the same circumstances

Some of the instructors who primarily train the armed private citizen (like John Farnam & Massad Ayoob) always suggest that you find an attorney in your area (if possible) who specializes in defending private citizens in self defense cases, and at least pay to talk to them for an hour or two and get their interpretation of the law in your state and the "judicial climate" in your locality -- how police & prosecutors proceed in these kind of investigations, how the process works, what political issues may be at play, and etc. That's pretty good advice, with the qualifier that, in many locations, it'll be pretty hard to find an attorney with trial experience in this unusual area, because in most places there just aren't that many true self-defense shootings. A regular general practice attorney probably won't have any specialized training or experience in this area, and they may not know that they don't know, so it's always possible that you may get some bad advice.

You might want to consider talking to the counsel for the local police officer's union or association -- it's quite possible that the local police union attorney has had some specialized training in this area, or can point you in the direction of somebody who does have such training.

---------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER BEING INVOLVED IN A SHOOTING INCIDENT:
From John Farnam of Defense Training International www.defense-training.com

14 June 2006
Two important points from Skip Gochenour's lecture at the 2006 National Tactical Invitational.. Skip is involved with the criminal justice system daily, and these two points should be kept in mind by all of us:
In the wake of a deadly-force incident in which you were involved:
(1) Let your lawyer do all the talking!
(2) "Self-defense" is a justification only available when your actions were intentional. "Self-defense" may not be invoked to justify"accidents"!
Your lawyer can have his facts all mixed up. He can tell outrageous lies.
You can fire him on Monday morning, and probably should! However, when talking with investigators and prosecutors, HE CAN GET YOUR SIDE OF THE STORY BEFORE THEM WITHOUT STATEMENTS THAT ARE ATTRIBUTABLE TO YOU! You needn't worry about what he says, to anyone. You need only worry about what you say.
It 's your statements, even inadvertent ones, that will come back to haunt you.
For example: When you intimate or even suggest, however subtly, that your use of deadly force was, in fact, accidental, from that point forward "self-defense" will no longer be available to you as a justification for what you did. A negligent discharge (ND) that results in an injury or death is a negligent homicide, and it cannot be subsequently converted to "self-defense," no matter what the person was doing when he was shot. STATEMENTS AS INNOCENT-SOUNDING AS, "I 'M SORRY." "I DIDN'T MEAN TO" or "I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS HAPPENED" ARE ALL THUS PERNICIOUSLY INCRIMINATING. Such statements must never leave your lips!
Those of us who go armed neglect the foregoing at our peril.
/John

15June06
Refinements, from a student who is a well-known and respected criminal defense attorney:
"I cannot count the number of times I've heard a client say, "They wanted to interview me, and we talked a little, but I didn't tell them ANYTHING. I was very careful.' Then, I get the discovery, including the report on the interview. It invariably includes a full confession, plus additional damaging statements, repeated multiple times. Great beginning for our defensive strategy!
The only thing that I believe a person should tell police who arrive at a hot scene (not all lawyers agree) is:
(1) 'Thank heaven you're here!'
(2) 'I'm the one who called.'
(3) 'A man broke into our house and tried to murder us.' (adjust as necessary)
(4) 'I'll be happy to answer all your questions, as soon as my lawyer is here.'
The only additional statements I advise are:
Tell arriving officers about: (1) active threats, (2) innocent people in the area (3) evidence, and (4) witnesses. These are important to the case, to the safety of officers and others, and may not be obvious.
Those statements, while still not risk-free, are appropriate and reasonable, and I think there is a moral duty to provide information which DIRECTLY effects the safety of officers and the discovery of truth."
/John
 
after being involved in a shooting incident . . .

Read your state statutes to see how the whole topic of "self defense" is addressed -- in common law states, it may not be mentioned in the statutes at all. In other states, statutes may define the circumstances under which a citizen can use force to defend life or property (In my home state, Wisconsin, it's defined by statute as "privilege" and defined thusly: "The fact that the actor's conduct is privileged,although otherwise criminal, is a defense to prosecution for any crime based on that conduct.The defense of privilege can be claimed under any of the following circumstances(2.) When the actor's conduct is in defense of persons or property under any of the circumstances described in 939.48 (Self-Defense and the Defense of others) or or 939.49 ((Defense of Property).

Other, more enlightened states, are much more specific in satutes about the citizen's right to self defense.

The Florida law is a self-defense, self-protection law. It has four key components:

It establishes that law-abiding residents and visitors may legally presume the threat of bodily harm or death from anyone who breaks into a residence or occupied vehicle and may use defensive force, including deadly force, against the intruder.

In any other place where a person “has a right to be,” that person has “no duty to retreat” if attacked and may “meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.”

In either case, a person using any force permitted by the law is immune from criminal prosecution or civil action and cannot be arrested unless a law enforcement agency determines there is probable cause that the force used was unlawful.

If a civil action is brought and the court finds the defendant to be immune based on the parameters of the law, the defendant will be awarded all costs of defense.

Chapter 776 of the Florida Code is called "Justifiable Use of Force"

Unfortunatley, in most states, the issue is not as clear. In most cases, as a citizen who uses force in self defense, the way to approach this is EXACTLY the way it's approached when a law enforcement officer uses force in self defense: the affirmative defense: Yes, I used force to defend myself, and this is why I am justified in doing what I did

Should you have the misfortune to be involved in a self-defense shooting, the issue is NOT taking responsibility and explaining your actions to the first responding officers or to investigators. What you need to avoid is making statements "in the heat of the moment" that are confusing, or not what you meant to say, or not an accurate recitation of the facts as you perceived them. The stress of a deadly force encounter can cause the mind to work in strange ways.

So don't make any detailed statments until after you've talked to counsel. But yes, you should tell the cops a few things:

INTERACTION WITH THE FIRST RESPONDING POLICE OFFICERS
(1.) When they arrive, do exactly as they say. If they tell you to put your gun down, then put it down. If they handcuff you, don't resist. Self defense situations are very chaotic, and the average officer does not go to many incidents involving a legitimate display or delivery of force by a law-abiding citizen, so it may take them quite a while to figure out what's going on.
(2.) What do you tell the cops?
-- "This man tried to attack me"
-- "The evidence is here"
-- "The witnesses are here"
-- "I will sign the complaint"
-- "I will cooperate with the prosecution"
-- "I will cooperate with the investigation, but I'm kind of upset right now."
-- I will cooperate with the investigation and make a full statement after I've had time to gather my thoughts and speak to my attorney."
(3.) You need to give enough of a statement so that the police have an idea about what happened. In particular, they need to know who potential witnesses are and where relevant physical evidence might be located. At the scene, they need enough information to begin the investigation and properly manage the crime scene. Remember, the police equate silence with guilt! The only people who utilize the "right to remain silent" are those with something to hide, so a carefully worded statement is probably in your best interest.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Self defense is an affirmative defense for an intentional and legally
justified act." --Massad Ayoob/Lethal Force Institute/04-14-2000

"You never have the RIGHT to shoot anybody. "Self Defense" is an extenuating circumstance. Self -Defense is a justification for the use of force, but it DOES NOT confer a "right" in the normal sense.
If you shoot somebody, as far as the criminal justice system is concerned, it is the death of a citizen. A homicide has been committed, and they already have the guy who did it, which is YOU. It's up to you and your attorney to show that the actions that you took were reasonable under that particular set of unusual circumstances, based on the information KNOWN TO YOU AT THE TIME."
-- John Farnam/Defense Training International/04-30-00
 
Jeff:

That was pretty comprehensive and I doubt I'd have said it any differently.

I'm no lawyer, and I don't know if you are or not. But what you said is a synopsis (if a long one) of the real deal as I've come to understand it from

- Florida Statutes
- My 2 paid attorneys
- Internet searches filtered by a little common sense
- Ayoob
- Florida Firearms Manual (post-October 2005 edition)
- Reading every flyer that came in the envelope with my CCWL and renewal
 
Invention: I'd stick with the paid attorneys for legal advice and leave giving seminars to the seminar-givers. :D Knowing your jurisdiction is important; after all, you mind wind up with a judge like that idiot cab driver on the Smith case.
 
Jeff,

I actually am a lawyer.

"You never have the RIGHT to shoot anybody. "Self Defense" is an extenuating circumstance. Self -Defense is a justification for the use of force, but it DOES NOT confer a "right" in the normal sense.
If you shoot somebody, as far as the criminal justice system is concerned, it is the death of a citizen. A homicide has been committed, and they already have the guy who did it, which is YOU. It's up to you and your attorney to show that the actions that you took were reasonable under that particular set of unusual circumstances, based on the information KNOWN TO YOU AT THE TIME."
-- John Farnam/Defense Training International/04-30-00
Click to expand...

This is EXACTLY what I was saying (or trying to say) earlier.

Good stuff! We all need to know this.

Edit: Oh, and by the way. Nothing that I EVER post on this thread is intended to be taken as legal advice. This is a purely ACADEMIC discussion, and in my participation in the conversation, I am not acting as anyone's lawyer. I am a lawyer, but I am not YOUR lawyer. In fact, I don't even practice criminal defense (anymore). NOTHING in this thread, or on this forum, is intended to establish an attorney-client relationship between me and ANY of you. (Ok, I have CYA'ed appropriately...)
 
Unfortunately you most likely WILL be arrested and go to jail until the story is crystal clear to the police. Most people don't know or do not believe this.

Tell them what happend. "He attacked me, I feared for my life, I shot him, I hold a CCW, I want to call my lawyer." Period.

Another thing people do not know or don't believe. IF you acted in complete compliance with the law AND your CCW, your life will change DRASTICALLY despite those facts. Get ready for court, spending LOTS of money on your defense. Providing you survive this case, you almost ALWAYS will have a 'wrongful death suit' brought against you by the family of the deceased. Wrongful death suits are near impossible to win. You may have defended you life and rightly so but you killed someone. You will HAVE to hash that out.
 
Invention: I'd stick with the paid attorneys for legal advice and leave giving seminars to the seminar-givers.
Click to expand...

I'll take that advice, Abstract.

Knowing your jurisdiction is important;
Click to expand...

I do know that the above is extremely important. Victims of crime learn this real quick.

after all, you mind wind up with a judge like that idiot cab driver on the Smith case.
Click to expand...

Don't kid yourself. That body, in the eyes of those vying for its custody, is painted green and has a plastic string running right through it, with 400,000,000 printed on each hand and foot. The judge is probably asking his version of god why he didn't let her die in Palm Beach. I'm sure he saw the media circus coming. He gave the procedings I saw more dignity than they deserved.

Just FYI, we're still being treated daily to it on the local news, and from the sound of it, will be for some time. She's the new replacement for Jon-Benet Ramsey, who replaced OJ Simpson.

I'm starting to sound crotchity.
 
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