After a fatal shooting

B

BouncerDan

New member
This may be the wrong forum and if that is the case I do truly apologize.

After a concealed carry holder is involved in a self defense shooting what should they expect? I live in Florida and it has recently hit me that after the shots are fired and police role up on the scene I have no idea what comes next. (provided it was a good shoot) I know I can't be arrested however I also know that at some point I will have to stand in front of the grand jury do I need a lawyer for that? Can anyone give me an idea on what comes after the shots.

Thanks

Dan
 
It all depends on the individual situation and circumstances. If it was clear that you acted in self-defense and you committed no crime then I would think the police would just want a statement from you then you'd be on your way. But if for some reason the police didnt think you were telling the truth or whatever then you'd probably be taken in for questioning and then i'd want a lawyer. In most self defense cases I doubt that you would need to appear before any type of court/grand jury. If you killed the person that you shot then that persons family could come after you in civil court but thats probably unlikely.
 
Hey, Bouncer.

First (and to get it out of the way), yes, you're in the wrong forum. This one goes under "Legal and Political." But, someone will move it soon, so it doesn't matter...

Second, hope all is going well with your work situation...

Third, What happens:

1. Get your butt to safety. Do not pass GO, do not do ANYTHING until you are safe again.

2. Call 911. Tell them that you were attacked, and that the attacker is down. You need police, and the attacker needs an ambulance. Tell 911 that you have a valid carry permit, you are armed, and tell them what you look like. They will probably tell you to stay where you are. If you feel safe doing that, fine. If you don't feel safe doing that, repeat Step 1, above.

3. Call your lawyer. Get the name of a good criminal defense attorney in your town. Drop by his office and pick up a business card. Keep his business card in your wallet.

4. Wait for the cops (unless your lawyer tells you otherwise - ALWAYS do what your lawyer says!). When the cops show up, tell them where the fallen attacker is, and tell them that you have called your attorney. Tell them that you will be happy to answer their questions, but you want an attorney present first. (Don't even tell them it was self-defense. If you say, "It was self-defense," you've just admitted that you killed the guy.)

(Step 4 is VERY controversial. Several people, mostly non-attorneys, will tell you to simply answer the cops, as openly and honestly as you can. Why hide if you did nothing wrong? This is COMPLETELY incorrect. You DID do something wrong: you shot a guy. You MIGHT be able to prove the valid defense of self-defense, but you might not. In an ideal world, you would like for the cops to not be able to prove ANYTHING, and thus, you'd never get charged. Don't be helpful. Keep your mouth SHUT and wait for your lawyer. The cops might not like it, but it's not their neck on the line.)

5. When you get downtown (and, you might have to go downtown), keep your mouth SHUT until your lawyer arrives.

6. This is the most important step: Keep your mouth SHUT until your lawyer arrives! Answer all "what-happened" questions with, "I'm sorry to slow you guys down, but I really must insist that I have my lawyer present before I say anything." Or, "Guys, I need my lawyer present before I answer any questions."
 
Just to add to all that, before the cops arrive, if you're sure the guy is down for the count and you're safe, put your gun down. On a table or counter but do not have it on your hand or your person. Have your permitt out and ready for inspection.

When the police arrive to a report of shots fired they are going to have their guns out and be looking for trouble. If there's one guy on the ground and another holding a weapon they will assume the worst. That's their job. They are running into a dangerous place when sane people would clear out. With the gun down and your hands clear there's much less chance on an unfortunate misunderstanding while they secure the scene.
 
When the cops shoot somebody they keep their mouths shut until they get legal counsel, and they have carte blanche. If they don't trust the system they kill for, why should you?
 
Just to add to all that, before the cops arrive, if you're sure the guy is down for the count and you're safe, put your gun down. On a table or counter but do not have it on your hand or your person. Have your permitt out and ready for inspection.
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Sorry to disagree Fox, but NEVER DO THIS! Do not disarm yourself. You cannot possibly know if there may have been someone else with the attacker, who might be waiting to take you out.

After the call is made to 911 holster your gun and remove your license and permit from your wallet. Transfer your permit and license to your weak hand and stay in the "safe place" you told 911 you would be. When the cops arrive raise your hands and follow their directions TO THE LETTER! Then go on with the lawyer stuff. Bottom line is never disarm yourself and never take yourself out of your "safety position" until you know it's safe.

This is coming from several law enforcement officials and carry permit instructors.
 
I'd have to disagree that taking the life of another is "doing something wrong," when that "another" was attacking me.
 
I'd have to disagree that taking the life of another is "doing something wrong," when that "another" was attacking me.
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The one thing you should consider is this. The responding police do not know what happened. The first thing they will see is one man down and bleeding and one man up and armed. Simply because you claim verbally that you have a CCW permit doesn't necessarily mean all is immediately forgiven. Until the situation is stabilized and sorted out you will be watched fairly closely.
You can interpret that any way you want. It could be anything from being proned out and cuffed to getting a hand shake.
 
The best advise i can give is to contact lawyers now , then put the card of the one you get along with in your wallet , when the police roll up be polite , surrender your weapon to them , do what they say to , and above all remember to call your attorney before you make any statement . As a suspect you have an absolute right not to make a statement without a lawyer , use it . It may mean setting in cuffs for a couple of hours that otherwise you wouldnt , but may well save you from setting in a cell for a couple of years . The one person qualified to be on your side after a shooting you have to pay to speak for you , sad but true .
 
I'd have to disagree that taking the life of another is "doing something wrong," when that "another" was attacking me.
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Read the statutes to see the problem with this statement. If you have killed your attacker, you HAVE committed manslaughter at least. There is no crime called "self defense". The crime is called, generally, "homicide", and you just indisputably did it.

The crime of homicide has some defenses in court. One of the defenses is "self-defense". In other words, you DID commit the crime, but you WILL (assuming it was indeed self-defense) be excused (in Florida, at least).

That's the mechanism, as described by the Florida Statutes and interpreted by a non-lawyer (me).

So the advice to SAY NOTHING is very wise. "it was self-defense" will induce the police to interpret "it" as "that homicide over there", and they'll probably assume the "self" is you. You have just admitted to a homicide. Stick to the polite but firm "I'll wait for my lawyer first".

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Also, in Florida, if the more immediate part goes well, i.e., the officialdom is made to see by you, in your lawyer's presence, that it was indeed self-defense, you do not have to worry about the family suing. All they will get is their attorney's bill, so no lawyer will take the case. It's the law.

No matter where you are, if you have a gun, HAVE AN ATTORNEY. You do NOT want to be standing there saying "duh" if the worst happens. Any decent criminal defense attorney who will handle a self-defense homicide will give you both his office number AND his cell phone number. If you can't get his personal cell phone number, move on to the next attorney. The idea is to absolutely minimize the amount of time you spend with police or in any sort of detention (along with its jailhouse snitches) before that attorney arrives, thus minimizing the time you have available to inadvertently hang yourself.
 
Invention: Hopefully, you didn't go to law school! Your legal analysis is absurd.

However, I do realize what Samurai (who did go to law school!) was saying, I believe. In the eyes of the investigating officers, I've done something wrong, until the investigation proves otherwise. I was just saying that, from my perspective, taking the life of another, in a legitimate case of self-defense, is not "doing something wrong."

Back to the absurd legal analysis: On second thought, it's just too absurd to rate further discussion. Maybe Samurai, a real lawyer, will explain.
 
Abstract

At least in California, Invention is correct. If you meet the criteria of the Penal Code section below you would not be prosecuted, let alone tried.

197. Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in any of the following cases: 1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or, 2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person, against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any person therein; or, 3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was committed; or, 4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving the peace.
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Dan-o

I was unable to figure out if you have a carry permit or not. I sure would think anyone taking a CCC would get the very basics anyway. The NRA Personal Protection in the Home handbook is a good easy read that will get most people headed in the right direction. I also understand that a homeowner doesn't have to have a carry permit to defend himself/family in their home/business. But anyone that has the means and mindset to use deadly force should get some kind of training.
As to the arrest, Yes you may very well be arrested. You can very easily be unarrested when the LEO's get things sorted out.
And sometimes the prosecutor will bring it before a grand jury just to end any speculation on them doing their job right. sad but could happen.
 
First (and to get it out of the way), yes, you're in the wrong forum. This one goes under "Legal and Political." But, someone will move it soon, so it doesn't matter...

Second, hope all is going well with your work situation...

Third, What happens:

1. Get your butt to safety. Do not pass GO, do not do ANYTHING until you are safe again.

2. Call 911. Tell them that you were attacked, and that the attacker is down. You need police, and the attacker needs an ambulance. Tell 911 that you have a valid carry permit, you are armed, and tell them what you look like. They will probably tell you to stay where you are. If you feel safe doing that, fine. If you don't feel safe doing that, repeat Step 1, above.

3. Call your lawyer. Get the name of a good criminal defense attorney in your town. Drop by his office and pick up a business card. Keep his business card in your wallet.

4. Wait for the cops (unless your lawyer tells you otherwise - ALWAYS do what your lawyer says!). When the cops show up, tell them where the fallen attacker is, and tell them that you have called your attorney. Tell them that you will be happy to answer their questions, but you want an attorney present first. (Don't even tell them it was self-defense. If you say, "It was self-defense," you've just admitted that you killed the guy.)

(Step 4 is VERY controversial. Several people, mostly non-attorneys, will tell you to simply answer the cops, as openly and honestly as you can. Why hide if you did nothing wrong? This is COMPLETELY incorrect. You DID do something wrong: you shot a guy. You MIGHT be able to prove the valid defense of self-defense, but you might not. In an ideal world, you would like for the cops to not be able to prove ANYTHING, and thus, you'd never get charged. Don't be helpful. Keep your mouth SHUT and wait for your lawyer. The cops might not like it, but it's not their neck on the line.)

5. When you get downtown (and, you might have to go downtown), keep your mouth SHUT until your lawyer arrives.

6. This is the most important step: Keep your mouth SHUT until your lawyer arrives! Answer all "what-happened" questions with, "I'm sorry to slow you guys down, but I really must insist that I have my lawyer present before I say anything." Or, "Guys, I need my lawyer present before I answer any questions."
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Great advice. It is spot on IMHO.
 
Abstract:

It wasn't meant to be a legal analysis, since I am not (as I plainly stated in my post) a lawyer and therefore not competent to do a legal analysis.

It was meant as a distillation of a careful ordinary analysis based on:

1 - Florida Firearms Handbook, available in most gun shops and written by a criminal defense attorney with an interest in the subject;
2 - What the Florida Statutes say, and they are written in very plain language;
3 - What my both of my lawyers have told me.

The reason is was offered is that you appeared to be saying that defending yourself is not doing anything wrong, which it isn't. But context is important. You said this in the context, which is what the thread is about, of what to do after a shooting. One might read your remark and think "well, I didn't do anything wrong, so I have nothing to hide, so I'll just talk to the police and they'll understand".

That's a really dangerous line of thought if that is what you were implying. The police, upon arrival at the scene, have little real idea of what happened, but they are there to find out. They should be told by you what happened only in the presence of your lawyer.

The only person who mentioned "doing something wrong" being associated with self-defense was Samurai, who apparently is a lawyer, and he was using it as a COUNTER EXAMPLE, not suggesting that you would have, in the end, have done anything wrong.

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It is MY interpretation, as a NON-LAWYER, from reading a whole lot of stuff, that when a person is killed by another person, a homicide has been committed. Period. Homi = person; cide = killed. It is my interpretation that if you committed this homicide in order to defend yourself against the commission of a "forcible felony", which are listed specifically in the statutes, that you have committed a "justifiable homicide" which, in my own terms, is a homicide against which you have a legal defense that will prevent your being convicted of it.

It WAS MY interpretation that, once you have convinced the criminal part of the justice system that the homicide was justifiable, that you could be sued but that you were immune from paying the resulting judgment, and that you would still be responsible for your civil legal defense costs. A careful reading of the statutes suggests it's better than that; you will not be responsible for ANY costs.

Samurai's remarks were exactly on the money.

If you think you "have done nothing wrong" and should yap away to the police, take a trip to www.reid.com, then google "reid method interrogation" and see what you think about your ability to have a safe conversation with the police after a shooting and without a lawyer present. In particular, take a look at his partial list of customers. This guy and his partner wrote the book on effective interrogation.
 
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Ok. To my "done something wrong" comment, there has been a request for explanation. And, I think it could best be explained using the following metaphor:

Let's say you're walking in the woods, and you're afraid of being caught by a snare. So, you carry a pocketknife, so that if you're caught by a snare, you can cut yourself free from it. You're basically safe, in that, in the end, you will ultimately wind up walking through the woods, free of snares. But, it's technically incorrect to say, "I'm carrying a pocketknife, so I won't ever get caught by any snares." In fact, you may get caught by a snare. But, after the fact, you'll be able to free yourself from it.
(End of Metaphor.)

Now, the laws of self-defense work exactly the same way. If you act to shoot someone in self-defense, then you have a "legal defense." In other words, if you are tried for homicide, you can raise your defense of "self-defense," and you can escape from the charges. BUT, it's not correct to say, "I won't get arrested, because I acted in self-defense." In fact, the only way you can raise your defense of self-defense is if you DO get arrested! Then, your legal defense will help you escape.

So, what the heck was I trying to say????

When the cops arrive at the scene, and it's obvious that you've killed someone, the cops can charge you with homicide. It is then up to YOU to prove your legal defense AT THE TRIAL. But, ultimately, you don't WANT to GO to trial. You want to go HOME!

So, there are many people out there who say, "Just tell the cop what happened when he gets there, and he'll let you go quickly." This is INCORRECT. Because, by raising your legal defense of "self-defense," you are essentially telling the cop, "I've just killed someone, and I've got my defense ready, so please arrest me."

What you REALLY want to have happen is for the cop to say, "Well, we can't prove anything, because we don't know what happened. We'll let you go home, and if we are able to prove anything later, we'll come back and arrest you." Or, at very least, "You're not being charged with anything, but we need you to come downtown so that we can talk to you with your lawyer present, because we really need to know what happened." Then, in your own time and on your own terms, you can work with your attorney to let the cops know what happened, in such a way that they say, "Well, this guy will be able to win (he'll be able to actually prove it) if he asserts his self-defense claim, so we'd better just not even try to arrest him. It would be a waste of time."

So, in conclusion, the theory of "answering the cop's questions openly and honestly, without your lawyer present" is wrong. KEEP QUIET. Don't be a jerk, but politely inform the officer that you need your attorney present before you answer any questions about the incident. That way, you can avoid ever being charged in the incident.
 
Revjen- you said why trust the system the cops don't- because, in New York at least, the cops don't have a 5th ammendment. they have to answer.

as for disarming- i said make sure you're safe and I didn't say chuck the gun away. My big point was don't have the gun in your hand. Police tend to get really really jumpy around that. you know, shots fired, guy with a gun in his hand. blood on the walls. etc.
 
Revjen- you said why trust the system the cops don't- because, in New York at least, the cops don't have a 5th ammendment. they have to answer.
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:confused: Rubber hose, broom handles, electric wires on the private parts...??? Remind me to stay out of NY!

badbob
 
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