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AllanHampton

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Just now heard Harry Browne on AFN and hope you listened too. You missed something if you didn't. One thing Browne said that impressed me was that if elected President he would pardon everyone in prison that is there for a none violent crime. If you are interested in not wasting your vote on the status quo look into the Libertarian Party, Browne is a candidate in that party. See what Harry has to say at: harrybrowne.org
 
I don’t agree with the wholesale release of non-violent convicts. There are plenty of swindlers and cyber-thieves that deserve jail time. Likewise, I don’t think that downloading child-pornography would be considered a violent crime, but I wouldn’t want those prisoners released either. Is burglary a violent crime?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"In the federal system, growth is being driven by drug law violators and immigration violators coming in,'" said statistician Allen J. Beck. [/quote] Link

The above referenced article also said the US now has the highest rate of incarceration in the world, surpassing even the former Soviet Union.

Many drug crimes *are* violent, but not always; and most immigration violations *are not* violent. Yet the Criminal Justice System obviously doesn't concentrate on violent criminals if they are filling our jails with non-violent immigrants. I don’t necessarily feel that having a large prison population is a bad thing. Let’s reserve the prime jail cells for violent criminals though.

Oh, wait... I think that the Elian case just set a precedent. Let’s have the INS start storming the country’s prisons and sending back illegal immigrants to their families overseas. NOT! This county needs an immigration policy that works. In many cases, American jails have better conditions than living "free" elsewhere. Putting immigrants in jail is not the answer, IMO.


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RKBA!
"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4 Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website
 
TheBluesMan, I guess the question is one of two evils. And apples & oranges don't mix so well. I believe there is more to any of those questions/answers you posed than you have thought trough.

"swindlers and cyber-thieves that deserve jail time"

No doubt in my mind that is true, but don't miss the point they are in jail. How much punishment is enough, especially considering violent criminals are walking the streets?

"I wouldn't want those prisoners released either"

Nor would I, but such should be classified violent, I think.

"Is burglary a violent crime?"

Yes, on my side if I catch the burglar in the act.

"Let's reserve the prime jail cells for violent criminals though."

Exactly, that is more to the point of what Browne was talking about.

Appears to me the remainder of your post is wishy washy and attempting to discredit. And I believe you are somewhat confused in just plain right & wrong, not to mention freedom.

I agree that what we have going on in this country is in no way acceptable, at least to me. On the issue of most any subject with governments involvement too. It would probably be easier to discuss what government is not into.

Drugs is a very good example though. Is it against the Law in this Republic for any citizen to personally possess or use any substance or product? If so can you point to that Law?

If you were on the jury would you vote to convict a citizen for possessing and/or personally using MJ? Or possession of a gun?

What does "shall make no law" or "shall not be infringed" mean?

One difficult part about understanding freedom is that it must to be shared.
 
A sad but true fact is, a vote for a Libertarian Presidential candidate takes a vote away from one of the other two. I'm Libertarian, but I won't vote that way and risk putting Al Gore in office.

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When they try to take away my 2nd Amendment rights, tell them Hell's comin' and I'm comin' with it! Armed and Dangerous
 
For those that insist on voting third party, you might as well vote for a decent candidate for president!

Vote for Howard Phillips of the Constitution Party!!! Forget the Libertarian this time.

Joe
 
Sword is right,

We are at the point now where we have to unify behind the lesser of two evils. I have heard some say "let's not vote and send a message to congress".
Not voting is a vote for Gore because the liberals will vote no matter what and in the end when Gore is elected they will look back and say "wow, you showed us".

Voting libertarian right now is not smart. There is no way Harry Brown is going to catch up to the 2 front runners. We have to realize that we are not mainstream America anymore, we are what's left of the mainstream America that made this country strong. Because of this, even if you could get every gun toten American to vote for Brown it still wouldn't be enough to defeat Gore.

I will do everything in my power to prevent Gore from being president. Voting for Brown at this point is not smart.

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"It is easier to get out of jail then it is a morgue"
Live long and defend yourself!
John 3:16

[This message has been edited by leedesert (edited April 26, 2000).]
 
Sword, nope, not a word of truth in your post. It is the rhetoric use to scare voters, control their thinking and pure nonsense. Perhaps you have some evidence of truth of your post, I would like to see it. Please post it?

I'll tell you some truth, on the whole democrats and republicans after elected to office do not honor their oath of office. Nor have they done so in 70-80 years, at least.

To honor the oath of office is the only legitimate reason We, the People, elect anyone to public office in this Republic. Voting for any other reason is a wasted vote in preserving this Republic of freedom and justice for all.
 
Allan,
Your words are so patriotic I feel like saluting right now but you are not very realistic.
You can yell red white and blue here all day long and we will all agree with your cause. The problem is the liberatarian party does not have the money or popularity to win. Not 5 months before the vote. I haven't even heard of this guy till I read your post. Do you see what I'm saying here.

This same exact stuff was said when Perot was running and we got stuck with Clinton. You can stand by your man all the way to the election but the majority of America will be voting that day. Not the Liberatarian party.

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"It is easier to get out of jail then it is a morgue"
Live long and defend yourself!
John 3:16
 
leedesert, I ask you the same, post your evidence? Better start thinking for yourself and stop parroting what you are told to say or think.
 
leedesert, absolutely, I see exactly what you are saying and again you are thinking on the wrong channel. You are repeating the spin of politicos to control voter thinking. If you choose a winner to vote for then you have voted for the wrong reason.

You may be assured I too am scared to death of gore being elected, but only slightly less scared of bush. But, if either of them are elected it will be because of the people who voted for them, or for the lesser of two evils, or a winner. It will not be because of the people who voted in good conscience for a third party candidate.

My fear is not for myself but for this Republic, freedom and justice for all. It is very evident to me that this Republic will not survive much longer under socialist rule. Democrats and republicans are both socialist at least when elected to office and their history in office proves that. Voting for the wrong reason is what will elect another socialist.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by leedesert:
The problem is the liberatarian party does not have the money or popularity to win. Not 5 months before the vote. I haven't even heard of this guy till I read your post. Do you see what I'm saying here.
[/quote]

Leedesert, if you haven't heard of Harry Browne before, the problem is yours, not his -- his name was on the presidential election ballot you marked in 1996, if you bothered to vote. He was the LP candidate then.

And part of the reason that the Libertarian Party (and other third party candidates as well, such as Phillips) don't get more coverage is because the Democrats (Socialist Party A) and the Republicans (Socialist Party B) work very hard to keep you from hearing about them. Gee, I wonder why that might be.

If you like the way this country is headed right now, then vote for Gore or Bush. If you'd like to see us governed by something resembling the Constitution, vote Libertarian.

Also, leedesert, Clinton won the last election with something like 49 million votes. Sounds to me like the nation's estimated 80 million gun owners could easily put into office any presidential candidate we decided to support.

And, finally, note that the Libertarian candidate wouldn't actually have to win to influence national policy. A strong showing by a third party candidate would have the other two parties hustling to co-opt its positions, and might even encourage the Republicans to do something other than just pretend that they favor a smaller government.

People who want to live in a free country won't see that happen by rejecting a candidate who wants a police state in four years and voting for a candidate who wants one in eight years. Would Bush be a better president than Gore? Unquestionably. But not by a whole lot.


[This message has been edited by David Roberson (edited April 26, 2000).]
 
IMO, time is a wasting in arguing over the issues. The question remains what are you, Mr. & Mrs. Citizen going to do about any issue? What can you do? Probably the best thing you can do is think for yourself. OK, but you will need some tools. Where will you get the tools to use in thinking about your role in/on the issues of government? The Constitution is the truth and supreme Law of this Republic. The Constitution is the source of your tools to use in thinking about your vote. constitution.org

The purpose of having elected officials in this Republic is that they honor their oath of office. Pure and simple with absolutely no other reason. Therefore a citizen's proper thought process in deciding who to vote for is centered on which candidate will honor the oath of office. In the preservation of this Republic there is NO other reason to vote.

Well, you ain't got all day, so to speak, to make up your mind. This Republic is in one hell of a mess because of voter ignorance of the purpose of the vote and even a Republic and the government of it. Or maybe their brain is locked in on just plain ol' greed. A vote of proper mind set is for America the Republic, freedom for all and not so much for self.

Anyway if you are going to get anything done you will need help, you can't do much by yourself. So, you need to start now telling everyone you know or meet to vote third party for every office. Yeah, most voters, especially socialist, will throw rocks at you, but hopefully you will get them started to thinking for themselves. harrybrowne.org ...is another good site to read.
 
Allan,

When bush is giving his concession speech and Gore is giving his victory speech because people like you voted for some third party candidate, I'll be saying, "I told you so," as the BATF dudes are busting down my door. Do you not remember what Perot did in the last two elections? It'll happen again. I guarantee it.
 
TBM,

"Criminals" are people who victimize others for their own gain. Someone who shoots up heroin in the privacy of their own home, so long as they do not commit crimes to pay for their habit, is no threat to me.

From my perspective, the law should protect our individual rights. So long as I do not infringe upon the rights of someone else, then the government has no standing to infringe upon my rights. That really ought to be the bottom line.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by houndawg:
Allan,

When bush is giving his concession speech and Gore is giving his victory speech because people like you voted for some third party candidate, I'll be saying, "I told you so," as the BATF dudes are busting down my door. Do you not remember what Perot did in the last two elections? It'll happen again. I guarantee it. [/quote]

This is silly. Bush the Elder and Dole lost bceause they didn't deserve to win. That's the bottom line. If the GOP had put up worthy candidates, then Perot couldn't have affected anything. Neither of those two men were friends of the Constitution, and there is WAY too much evidence for you to argue to the contrary.

There are precious few people in elected office who honestly care about the rights guaranteed to us in the Constitution. Neither Gore nor Bush the Younger is among their number.

And can someone refresh my memory? Who was president when the Weaver family was assaulted at Ruby Ridge?
 
houndawg, where did you learn that nonsense? Wasn't off the tube (tv) was it? Repeating scare tactics and mind control rhetoric of politicos will help start a war. If you don't want a socialist in elected office then don't vote, or in any way support, them. This is a Republic, if we can hold it, you know?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bob Locke:
...the law should protect our individual rights. So long as I do not infringe upon the rights of someone else, then the government has no standing to infringe upon my rights.[/quote]

The Constitution protects our individual rights. Most laws just take them away.

From my perspective, buying kiddie-porn doesn't infringe, directly, on someone else; but it does contribute to the people who victimized children. Likewise, drug users do not infringe directly on someone else; but they contribute to the people who often do victimize others. Maybe they wouldn't if drugs were legalized.

I don't see how people who violate immigration laws are directly infringing on anyones rights. Why do we have so many locked up?

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RKBA!
"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4 Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website
 
TheBluesMan, what is the problem that you do not understand what you just posted? A person cannot commit a crime against themselves, contribution to someone else may be illegal. I see nothing wrong with laws against contribution. Personal use or possession does not involve anyone else. And any law against personal possession and use of anything violates individual freedom.

There is one big problem with individual freedom, it must be shared. Those who support restricting the other fellow's freedom do not, or soon will not, have any freedom themselves. Tax the rich, huh?

I am not into pornography nor drugs (and never have been) myself and think it bad crap, but do not want any law, particularly federal, restricting in any way the other fellow's personal use or possession of such. When a person gets outside of themselves, so to speak, contributes with it then it becomes a problem of society and requires a law.

However, let me point out if a law is not enforced then it is not worth the paper it is written on. How about our Constitution? It is the Supreme Law of this Republic. Whose job is it to enforce that high Law? In case you don't know that job is none other than the responsibility of We, The People. And we enforce it with/by the vote, jury duty (preferably) or the gun. Those are our only options of enforcement too. Screaming and yelling at each other will enforce nothing to the benefit of this Republic.
 
Allan,
Judging by your repeating of the words "mind control rhetoric and scare tactics" I can see that you are probably following a script or lesson plan issued by the libertarian party.
There is nothing wrong with that because I get the libertarion party newsletter myself. The problem I see is every time one of us talks about the reality of today you keep repeating your little que card.
You ask me where is the evidence to support what I said previously. If you put your que card down and open an almanac you will see who the President has been for the last 8 years. The reason is liberals unite behind their candidate and vote. We on the other hand split hairs and some vote with abortion as their concern, others with the 2nd amendment, and then others prayer in schools, etc...etc...
There are major differences between Gore and Bush and if you don't see them you may want to lower your que card so you can see them.

The reason I never heard of Brown is because he did not publicize his platform. I, as well as most of America are a little busy working all day, helping our kids with homework, solving daily life problems, attending church, and every other thing that pops up every day.
I agree he would make a damn good president because I know what the libertarian party stands for however, it doesn't mean squat if he can't win.
How many votes does he have now?
How many did he have when he ran and lost last time?
Has he done anything different this time to get more votes?
If he is not on TV he can only be seen by grass root voters that have access to libertarian news. I'm sorry but amongst Americas current voting stream you are in the extreme minority.
I wish this wasn't true but it is. If you need proof to support this theory then as I stated earlier, put down your newsletter and step outside. Take a look at what is really happening, not what you unrealisticly would like to happen.

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"It is easier to get out of jail then it is a morgue"
Live long and defend yourself!
John 3:16
 
leedesert, better get hip hoots on or step outside indeed because your political BS is getting passed knee deep in here. While you are outside you should take a look at the history of the socialist (dems + repubs) anti-citizen unconstitutional legislation in the last 70-80 years. Now don't try to say third parties had anything to do with it. I'll wager you don't know what unconstitutional legislation is nor even anti-citizen legislation.

Your clairvoyance is inaccurate, so don't pick any winners for me and I don't get or even read the Libertarian news letter, nor do I even know they have one. There is something better than listening to politico's promises, it's called common sense.

Do you know what is a Republic? Do you know the purpose of the government of this Republic? I'll wager you don't. Want to know how I know? It's very simple, you don't know the purpose of the vote, that's why. I suggest if your freedom and the freedom of your children mean anything to you then study the Constitution and the Federal Papers. Then you will know what I've been saying is true. Then too you will cast your vote, not for a winner, nor a political party, but for America the Republic where freedom rings. Well it did once anyway before socialist took over.

BTW the Constitution and the Federalist papers is where I get my solid information on the purpose of the government of this Republic. I hope you can break away from the tv tube talking faces long enough to learn a little of what you speak of.

Also, I'll wager you are in some way employed in government, a school teacher maybe?
 
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